Would Ennis Commit Suicide?

[serious crayons]

Just catching up ...

I am getting a kind of visceral, gut-reaction type of feeling that I understand that Ennis could come to hate "being gay" even more because he believes that Jack's "being gay" has cost him (Ennis) the one person he loved--Jack. It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsbile for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."

Hmm. OK, I think I get it. However, I disagree with it. I think Ennis becomes more accepting of his sexuality at the end, not less. That's the message I take from much of the last few scenes, including his breakup with Cassie, his call to Lureen, his relative lack of concern about the Twists' knowing about their relationship, his use of the word "love," and so on.

As a result of Jack's fate and Ennis' belated understanding of how he should have honored their relationship, Ennis becomes a tiny bit less concerned about hiding. His worries about being "queer" or people "suspecting" are far overshadowed by grief. Not to say he's going to come out entirely (the icons of his love are still kept in the closet), but that he overcomes at least part of his internalized homophobia when he realizes what it cost him.

I do think Ennis may have been mad at himself for not being able to protect Jack. But again, to me that would indicate if anything decreased homophobia, not increased. As for anger, I think in Kubler-Ross' scheme it's usually directed at God or some outside cause. I think it's possible to feel anger for the deceased person, and I suppose Ennis' could potentially be angry at Jack for being reckless, but I see no sign of that. To me, he appears to be in one of the other stages (not including acceptance). "Jack, I swear ..." could even suggest a hint of denial or bargaining (something like, I swear things would be different if only you'd come back).

And as self-destructive as excessive alcohol consumption and smoking (note Ennis's stubby cigarette as Alma Jr. drives up to the trailer) are, I feel I can hardly begrudge these little pleasures that our hardened, lonely ranch hand allows himself.

Good point. We see little evidence that he drinks to excess, except I guess the seven beers he consumes while waiting for Jack to show up for the reunion.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I see Ennis's choice of wine here as befitting the occasion--he knows that this is a special moment that calls for something more refined, from a traditional point of view, than beer, whiskey (the two beverages one imagines him consuming the most), or even the coffee or hot tea that Ennis earlier offered his daughter. It was old, cheap wine, to be sure, but it was the best he had on hand.

Just as an FYI/aside, according to the screenplay, that wine is a relic of his relationship with Cassie. Must've been in that fridge quite a while. Eeew. ... 

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

After Jack dies, I don't think Ennis will ever be anywhere near as happy as he was with Jack when they would be together. And as much as he loves his daughters, I think he might dwell on suicide, I'm sure he'd passively do it, and it's possible that he could attempt it and succeed.

Regardless, I don't see Ennis living happily once Jack has died. I think he probably felt his day-to-day life to be a waste and then he dies relatively young.

[dly64]

Hmm. OK, I think I get it. However, I disagree with it. I think Ennis becomes more accepting of his sexuality at the end, not less. That's the message I take from much of the last few scenes, including his breakup with Cassie, his call to Lureen, his relative lack of concern about the Twists' knowing about their relationship, his use of the word "love," and so on.

I agree he takes a step in the right direction. But, how much is Ennis really going to change? I do think that Ennis could no longer live a “false life.” In other words, he was not able to masquerade as a heterosexual anymore when he knew he could never love anyone other than Jack. He also began to understand the toll his denial took on the women previously in his life. Which leads me to ….

As a result of Jack's fate and Ennis' belated understanding of how he should have honored their relationship, Ennis becomes a tiny bit less concerned about hiding. His worries about being "queer" or people "suspecting" are far overshadowed by grief. Not to say he's going to come out entirely (the icons of his love are still kept in the closet), but that he overcomes at least part of his internalized homophobia when he realizes what it cost him.

I completely agree that Ennis received a “wake up call” after Jack died. Ennis understood what he could have had and the price he paid for his impassivity. However, it was his grief that caused him to become more withdrawn and bitter. He was taught to hate homosexuals. In other words, he was taught to be self-deprecating. Ennis had an enormous amount of guilt and self-loathing. He turned the anger inward and became averse to his sexual orientation. He hated the “thing” that caused Jack to die.

I do think Ennis may have been mad at himself for not being able to protect Jack. But again, to me that would indicate if anything decreased homophobia, not increased. As for anger, I think in Kubler-Ross' scheme it's usually directed at God or some outside cause. I think it's possible to feel anger for the deceased person, and I suppose Ennis' could potentially be angry at Jack for being reckless, but I see no sign of that. To me, he appears to be in one of the other stages (not including acceptance). "Jack, I swear ..." could even suggest a hint of denial or bargaining (something like, I swear things would be different if only you'd come back).

You are right that in the stages of grief, anger is usually directed towards God. In this case, however, I think Ennis’ anger was turned inward. The whole “what if  ….” scenario would be a painful mantra in Ennis’ life.

[serious crayons]

He hated the “thing” that caused Jack to die.

I think I agree with everything you say    except the above sentence.

Yes, he was taught to hate homosexuality and therefore was guilty and self-loathing. Yes, his anger was turned inward. Yes, "What if" would be a painful mantra. And yes, Jack's death prompted him to take a step in the right direction and quit living a false life.

But if you're saying "the thing" he hated as a result of Jack's death was homosexuality, I disagree. Not that he didn't still hate homosexuality to some degree, I'm sure. But I think he became more accepting of it in himself and Jack as the movie went on, and especially at the end.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I do think Ennis may have been mad at himself for not being able to protect Jack. But again, to me that would indicate if anything decreased homophobia, not increased.

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the point here. In fact I'm not even seeing the connection between inward-directed anger over failure to protect Jack and homophobia.

Incidentally, just so I'm clear, I don't necessarily think Ennis is more homophobic at the end. I was only restating in my own way what I thought Diane was saying, and how and why that I see that it might be possible.

Sort of same goes for wondering if at some level Ennis could be "angry" at Jack for Jack's death. This isn't my field but, here again, I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind. Maybe that's a manifestation of survivor guilt? I don't know.

[dly64]

I think I agree with everything you say    except the above sentence.

OMG!! We’re making progress! Let's amrk the day and time!   

But if you're saying "the thing" he hated as a result of Jack's death was homosexuality, I disagree. Not that he didn't still hate homosexuality to some degree, I'm sure. But I think he became more accepting of it in himself and Jack as the movie went on, and especially at the end.

I am going back to what Jeff said:
…. “Ennis could come to hate "being gay" even more because he believes that Jack's "being gay" has cost him (Ennis) the one person he loved--Jack. It's as though Ennis might see "being gay," rather than a tire iron, as being ultimately responsible for Jack's death, so that it could increase his own internalized homophobia--his own hatred of "being gay."”

I like his explanation because he expresses what I believe to be true. I think this is the one point that we will not see eye to eye. Ennis understands and ultimately accepts the knowledge that he is gay. (i.e. he is no longer in denial). But that doesn’t mean he is at peace with that revelation.

Sort of same goes for wondering if at some level Ennis could be "angry" at Jack for Jack's death. This isn't my field but, here again, I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind. Maybe that's a manifestation of survivor guilt? I don't know.

I looked up the definition of “survivor’s guilt.” It is:

A deep sense of guilt, combined often with feelings of numbness and loss of interest in life, felt by those who have survived some catastrophe. Survivors often feel that they did not do enough to save those who died or that they are unworthy relative to the perished.

I think that Ennis' reaction fits that definition. What it doesn't state is that the "survivor" would become angry at the deceased. On the contrary, the survivor would turn the anger towards him/herself. Example: "What if I would have done ... maybe Jack would be alive."

[Katie77]

From what  I have learnt and read about suicide, it is a very impulsive thing....

Many who commit suicide, have often bemoaned their unhappiness in life, and said that they "should put an end to it"....but most say this several times before they do it.....

Whatever has happend in ones life, is usually not the reason for the suicide, it is actually the reason for the state that their life is in now....if they are sad, it is because of something that has happened before, if they are lonely, it is because of something that has happened before....it may have been one thing or several things that have brought this suicidal person to this decision.

What makes the day they actually do it, different, from the days they talked about doing it, or feeling like doing it, is something that we may never know....but something, some form of finality, makes them finally pull the trigger on that day....

I dont believe it is a matter of toghness, strength or weakness, it is a final moment, caused by many things which brought them to this moment in time.

[serious crayons]

I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the point here. In fact I'm not even seeing the connection between inward-directed anger over failure to protect Jack and homophobia.

I thought it was you and/or Diane who were making a connection between inward-directed anger and homophobia.

As I understood your idea: Jack dies. Ennis is angry at Jack for being gay because that's what led to Jack's death. Ennis knows Ennis is also gay and so turns more anger on himself. Therefore Jack's death increases Ennis' internalized homophobia.

All I'm saying is if Ennis is angry at all at the end (which I think is doubtful in the first place), I would guess it is at himself rather than Jack. And that anger would focus not on anyone's homosexuality but on Ennis' failure to protect Jack from death. And that suggests he feels they had the sort of relationship in which protective responsibility would fall on him. And though that wouldn't necessarily require a romantic element, it is more likely to. Therefore Ennis' anger over Jack's death would indicate that, if anything, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, Jeff, you now say you don't necessarily agree with the initial premise, anyway. And it's possible I'm still misunderstanding Diane's point. If so, never mind.

I have a gut feeling that when a death is unexpected--as was Jack's--it's probably not that uncommon for survivors to go through a period of being angry at the deceased--for dying and leaving the loved one behind.

That could be. I don't see any sign of it in Ennis' demeanor, but I would guess it does happen in "real life."

[Jeff Wrangler]

I thought it was you and/or Diane who were making a connection between inward-directed anger and homophobia.

As I understood your idea: Jack dies. Ennis is angry at Jack for being gay because that's what led to Jack's death. Ennis knows Ennis is also gay and so turns more anger on himself. Therefore Jack's death increases Ennis' internalized homophobia.

Well, yes, and sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I was trying to get at was not seeing a connection between anger over his failure to protect Jack and and a lessening of Ennis's own internalized homophobia.

All I'm saying is if Ennis is angry at all at the end (which I think is doubtful in the first place), I would guess it is at himself rather than Jack. And that anger would focus not on anyone's homosexuality but on Ennis' failure to protect Jack from death. And that suggests he feels they had the sort of relationship in which protective responsibility would fall on him. And though that wouldn't necessarily require a romantic element, it is more likely to. Therefore Ennis' anger over Jack's death would indicate that, if anything, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Does that make sense?

Yes, logically, I think it does. I just don't buy the "is more likely to require a romantic element" premise. Therefore I don't buy the conclusion that as a result of Jack's death, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Anyway, Jeff, you now say you don't necessarily agree with the initial premise, anyway. And it's possible I'm still misunderstanding Diane's point. If so, never mind.

No, I think you understand it. And I never intended to say that I did agree with the premise, only that I thought I understood Diane's point, in a visceral sort of way, and I see how it could be possible. But that's not the same thing as agreeing with it.

Then again, maybe I just want to believe that by the end of the film, Ennis is more accepting of himself. But as I write this I'm wondering whether the conclusion of the film gives us enough evidence to make a decision about that point.