Author Topic: Sword and Sandal movie updates  (Read 30988 times)

Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 02:21:23 am »

Now the "sword and sandal movie I'd like to see made, would be someone filming "The Persian Boy", and actually staying true to the source material. Except I wouldn't mind the film being a tad more explicit, since Mary Renault's novel very maddeningly skirts around the sex oh-so-politely and with eyes very firmly closed. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit. Or two.  :P


I love Mary Renault's romantic writing style. I wouldn't have it any other way. One of my favourite Renault quotes is from The Persian Boy. Bagoas is describing Alexander:

"He was seemly in sleep, his mouth closed, his breathing silent, his body fresh and sweet. The room smelled of sex and cedarwood, with the tang of salt from the sea. Autumn drew on, the night wind blew from the north. I drew the blanket over him; without waking, he moved to me in the great bed, seeking warmth."

Now I really am all hot and bothered. Quick, someone, hand me a fan!  ;)   :D

I'd love to see a movie of Mary Renault's The Last of the Wine; though, I dread to think what obnoxious Hollywood pretty boys would be cast to play Alexias and Lysis. Probably best left to my imagination.  :-\

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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 11:22:55 am »
*Hands Kerry a fan that - hopefully - would have been good enough for Alexander*



Your quote from the Persian Boy really had me yearning for a movie. *sigh*
I was so disappointed when Bagoas didn't even have one spoken line in "Alexander". It was sad to realize that Oliver Stone's fiasco probably killed anyone's possibility of getting financing for making a *decent* Alaxander-themed movie in the foreseeable future.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 12:26:34 pm »
I was so disappointed when Bagoas didn't even have one spoken line in "Alexander". It was sad to realize that Oliver Stone's fiasco probably killed anyone's possibility of getting financing for making a *decent* Alaxander-themed movie in the foreseeable future.

The movie Alexander did well overseas.  It didn't do well in the U.S. for obvious reasons.  I very much liked the movie Alexander.  Saw it multiple times at the theater.  Own two DVD versions of it and many books about Alexander.  IMO, Oliver Stone did an excellent job of melding history with homages to Mary Renault while trying to reach a large audience.

Trouble is, sometimes audiences don't really want to see history.

I think even the greatest filmmaker would have had a problem doing an Alexander movie.  The man was a bisexual from a nation whose culture valued might over right.  He was the son of a famous warrior king who came to power after his father was assassinated by an ex-lover he'd tired of and cast away to be gang-raped.

It's hard to get a modern movie audience to sympathize or empathize with someone who loved his friends dearly, but had no problem taking them into war with him nor executing them later when he felt they'd betrayed him.  In this day and age, trying to tell the story of a man who liked to conquer - he wasn't defending his nation or people, he was simply expanding his power base - and had whole towns massacred if they didn't surrender to him, sold innocent people into slavery without a second thought is not someone a modern audience is going to want to identify with or understand.

I mean it can be done, but only to a degree.  For example, in the HBO series Rome, the producers/writers succeeded quite well in making the two main characters who were unrepentant rapists, murderers and slaveowners the sympathetic heroes of the series.  However they did this by keeping the POV strictly on their side, by keeping them as small cogs in a bigger machine, by only hinting at some of the more heinous acts they committed and by keeping them strictly heterosexual and loyal family people (kinda like when they make movies about mobsters).

Alexander can't really be manipulated this way and stay true to history.  He was in charge.  He was completely aware of what he was doing.  He is just not a sympathetic character.  And granted, one doesn't have to make movies only about people who are warm and fuzzy, filmmakers still want to reach an audience.  So if you remove audiences who only want a popcorn, modern morals Hollywood-ized action adventure movie, who are you left with?  A limited audience for a movie about a real Alexander, and even fanboys who fancy themselves anarchists and would enjoy a character who believes in and enforces a might-is-right policy are sometimes the worst kinds of homophobes and would not take to the other aspects of the historical man.

How big is that remaining audience now?

I just don't think it's possible to make a good but true movie about Alexander that's going to find a wide audience.

Look at the examples on my original post.  I titled them both "Alexander the Straight" because both the Bollywood version and the teenage series have a fictional female character as a love interest for Alexander.  The makers of these productions aren't interested in reality or history, they're interested in reaching a bigger audience. 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 02:14:50 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 01:03:26 pm »
Oh my, Del, you actually liked Alexander?

When I went to see it, I'd read numerous reviews so I knew what others thought (not good). I fully expected to defy them - I so much *wanted* to like it! But I had to agree it was bad. Everything from the strange way the narrative was cut together, the incomprehensible never-ending battle scenes, the boring voice-overs, Colin Farrel's horrific wig, the way they didn't *really* dare show that Hephaisteon and Alexander were lovers, ancient titles and place names without any explanations, the ludicrous Alexander/Roxane fighting/mating sequence and so forth and so on... it just was disappointing. Unengaging. And most of all, I didn't understand what Stone thought about the person Alexander. I didn't understand what he *wanted* with the film. What was he trying to convey? A portrait of someone who drove himself to the ends of the earth to conquer it all and *still* could not be satisfied with himself? That power always corrupts? A history lesson?

I think there *is* a market for an Alexander movie - but not one that tries to tackle Alexander's entire life and times. That is just too big of a tale, there would have to be so much exposition to explain the times and customs... it would all have to be incredibly rushed....there are all the objections you mention.
So IMO it would have to be either the life story of someone more on the fringes of the big events (cough*Bagoas*cough), or it would have to deal with one or a few events - or one year/one place/one culture and Alexander's related impact. Ie. limit the extent, focus the subject matter, let us meet people to identify with. Show Alexander indirectly thought he eyes of others.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 01:19:14 pm »

Some commentators believe Antinous may have ritually sacrificed himself by jumping into the Nile. Couple of reasons. Though he was born in what is modern-day Turkey, he was of Greek heritage and it is presumed he was raised in the Greek manner re the erastes/eromenos practice. This was not the Roman tradition, however, and even though Hadrian was a lover of Greek culture, his Court was not necessarily so. Hadrian and Antinous were a classic erastes/eromenos couple. Alas, however, where even the fundamentalist Romans of the day may have been prepared to turn a blind eye to this when Antinous was young, they were not prepared to do so when he became a man. And by all accounts, he grew into a fine figure of a young man, very athletic and masculine in his manner. He was certainly no mincing, perfumed, giggling court catamite. Whilst accompanying Hadrian on his inspection of Egypt, some believe that Antinous took the opportunity to sacrifice himself in the Nile (i) to save Hadrian the shame of having an adult male lover and (ii) because he knew that those who died within Hapy's dark embrace would be declared immortal and could possibly be deified. As it was, the latter occurred, thanks to Hadrian, though not formally. It was because of the depth of Hadrian's mourning for Antinous that so many fine statues of Antinous have come down to us. I recently read somewhere that his is one of the most recognized faces to survive the ancient world, mainly because of all the statues made of him and also because it was so late in the Roman Empire.


One author I read on their relationship also brought up the possible sacrifice by Antinous, but he doesn't put much credence in it for the following reasons:

There remains the fundamental objection to the sacrificial theory...if Antinous had devoted himself to death for Hadrian, why not did the latter say so, indeed trumpet to the world such a sublime abnegation?...does the absence of explicit accounts [of his death] from the period when the cult was established, 130-38 mean there was no such sacrifice and it was a later invention...?

If Antinous had died to save the Emperor from the onset of lethal sickness or from...dangers, would Hadrian have wished news of such...broadcast around his Empire?  Would someone so independent and proud, recently proclaimed as almighty and bountiful Zeus incarnate, have wished to confess in public and perpetuity his own impotence in the face of impeding illness or death?  Would the self-contained autocrat Hadrian...have wished his subjects to know that the future of his reign and stability of the Empire itself had thus depended on the whim of a mere youth?  Would Hadrian, who boasted of his independence [from] astrologers, have desired the world to hear that his fate had been dictated by the gibberings of Egyptian magicians? 

However much the sacrifice glorified Antinous, it belittled Hadrian.  It exposed his physical vulnerability the bankruptcy of his divine pretensions, his practical impotence in the face of disaster...If Hadrian were, as the magicians predicted, to die or be overwhelmed by disasters, would not that be the end of Antinous, too?  If the Emperor survived, was there much of a future for Antinous to look forward to anyway?


The author also goes on to speculate on possible suicide motives.  Antinous was getting older, growing hair, maturing and Hadrian basically liked smooth twinks.  There was a new member of the royal entourage to whom Hadrian was giving attention, a person whose education and aristocratic pedigree Antinous, a simple youth from Asia Minor, could not compete with.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 10:45:42 pm by delalluvia »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 01:41:08 pm »
Oh my, Del, you actually liked Alexander?

Loved it.

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When I went to see it, I'd read numerous reviews so I knew what others thought (not good). I fully expected to defy them - I so much *wanted* to like it! But I had to agree it was bad. Everything from the strange way the narrative was cut together, the incomprehensible never-ending battle scenes

I remember reading this as a criticism as well.  The movie was nearly 3 hours long.  How many battle scenes were there? 

2.  Only 2.

As for incomprehensible, well, Oliver Stone has seen and experienced real combat.  You're not going to get a clear, clean-cut, easy to figure out, Game-boy battle scene out of him.

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the boring voice-overs

Which were necessary to explain the massive jumps in time.  Like you said in your post, the story of Alexander is too big.

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ancient titles and place names without any explanations

Who is going to stop and explain them?  You already don't like the voice-over.  The homosexuality was vaguely hinted at to be sure, a major failing IMO as well. 

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the ludicrous Alexander/Roxane fighting/mating sequence

I thought the sex scene was funny as well, but it was meant to show Alexander's subconscious Oedipus complex.  Roxanne resembles his mother.

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And most of all, I didn't understand what Stone thought about the person Alexander.

Really?  I thought it was clear.  So clear he was all but hitting the audience over the head with it.  He thought Alexander had such an abusive childhood, torn between two ambitious competing vicious cut-throat parents (his beloved, protective mother telling him as a young boy that if you trust someone, they will turn on you, his idolized father threatening him with death then turning around in the next sentence and cheerfully saying how much he missed him) that he basically went out and conquered to get away from it.  IOW he was running.

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I didn't understand what he *wanted* with the film. What was he trying to convey?

It was a character study of one man done against a massive world-stage backdrop.

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So IMO it would have to be either the life story of someone more on the fringes of the big events (cough*Bagoas*cough)

Bagoas was a sheltered fucktoy.  IMO he wouldn't have had the brains to know what was going on.  For example, in The Persian Boy at the end of the book, Alexander is parading his new generation of youthful soldiers in the main stadia of Babylon for games.  They are a racial mixture of Eastern troops trained in Western fashion, but dedicated in the Eastern fashion only to Alexander.  This is a huge socio-political act by Alexander with far-reaching and possibly deadly ramifications.  How does Bagoas react?  He thinks the boys look very pretty.  ::)  I would choose someone more like one of Alexander's generals or one of Alexander's youthful lieutenants.  Someone a little bit more on the ball.

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Show Alexander indirectly thought he eyes of others.

But then you're not really showing who the moviemaker thinks Alexander is.  You're getting it more like 3rd hand knowledge.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 02:38:13 pm »
Well, obviously all this is based on individual perception and preferences - likes/dislikes -  and so.... we won't agree on this one. I'm sorry. It must be irritating to like a film so much and have everyone else going on about how bad it was.  :-\

(I've seen it twice - one time on TV, to convince myself it was better than I remembered from the cinema. But it wasn't.)

A couple of comments anyhow, because it's an interesting topic IMO!

I remember reading this as a criticism as well.  The movie was nearly 3 hours long.  How many battle scenes were there? 

2.  Only 2.

As for incomprehensible, well, Oliver Stone has seen and experienced real combat.  You're not going to get a clear, clean-cut, easy to figure out, Game-boy battle scene out of him.

Yes, there were only 2, but boy - did they feel never-ending! Especially the first one. I felt the  movie beat me over the head with the milling confusion of battle and after I had gotten that, just continued doing it. It was boring. Whatever battles are, I doubt they are boring, so I'd say Stone failed to get his points across to me. 

Battles may be confusing as hell, but filmmakers have an obligation to make the confusion - and the battle as such - serve a point in the narrative. To make it relevant to Alexander's particular story. This IMO did a poor job of that. I just think they went overboard in special effects, and decided once they'd gone to all the trouble (and cost!!) that the battle scenes were staying in, whether or not they really had much of a structure and point to them.

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Which were necessary to explain the massive jumps in time.  Like you said in your post, the story of Alexander is too big.
Yes it surely is. I remember thinking at the time through that they used voice-overs where there should have been real scenes, and scenes where there could have used voice-overs. But it's too long since I saw the film and I can't give you examples now.

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Who is going to stop and explain them?  You already don't like the voice-over. 
I don't claim to be a film-maker, I only say what worked and din't work for me. They used titles such as "Satrap", and place names such as "Sogdia, Baktria", and didn't explain what and where that is. Maybe I should have remembered that, but I didn't. And IMO it detracted from the tale. I watched the film with subtitles - I sat there wishing the translator would have taken the time to check where Sogdia was and included in in an aside in the subtitles. But nope.

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The homosexuality was vaguely hinted at to be sure, a major failing IMO as well. 


I bet Colin Farrell and Jared Leto would have found it more realistic and just as easy to deal with if their characters had actually made out or gone to bed at least once, rather than those deep meaningful kohl-rimmed loooong looks.

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I thought the sex scene was funny as well, but it was meant to show Alexander's subconscious Oedipus complex.  Roxanne resembles his mother.
OK. I didn't get that. But it makes sense. The mating scene was embarrassing, IMO. But I admit I got distracted by the presence of Angelina Jolie, and that may have obscured the similarities between her and Roxane. 

From other readings about Alexander I got the impression that everyone was nagging him so much to marry and produce an heir, he finally married Roxane as a kind of warning as much as anything - "back off me, or you may get what you wished for but you'll regret you did wish for it." That may have coloured my impression of the scene. Roxane is an interesting character BTW.

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Really?  I thought it was clear.  So clear he was all but hitting the audience over the head with it.  He thought Alexander had such an abusive childhood, torn between two ambitious competing vicious cut-throat parents (his mother telling him as a young boy that if you trust someone, they will turn on you, his father threatening him with death then turning around in the next sentence and cheerfully saying how much he missed him) that he basically went out and conquered to get away from it.
That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe that's why I didn't get it. I thought it was about him trying to conquer the world to prove to himself and others that he was better than those dreadful parents had made him feel, but that he really always was just "running from himself" and his demons (courtesy of his parents, sure enough), and there was never far enough places to conquer to get away from that and to prove himself - to himself. That he conquered land to the ends of the known world and beyond and still could not reach a place of confidence and inner calm. But I thought it was poorly and haphazardly communicated. Though there were some scenes at the end, when Alexander starts looking driven and almost haunted, that almost broke through to me and made me "feel" him.

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Bagoas, IMO, was a sheltered fucktoy. 
And this makes him disqualified as a film subject why?  ;)

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IMO he wouldn't have had the brains to know what was going on.  For example, in The Persian Boy at the end of the book, Alexander is parading his new generation of youthful soldiers in the main stadia of Babylon for games.  They are a racial mixture of Eastern troops trained in Western fashion, but dedicated in the Eastern fashion only to Alexander.  This is a huge socio-political act by Alexander with far-reaching and possibly deadly ramifications.  How does Bagoas react?  He thinks the boys look very pretty.  ::) 

Hmmm.... I seem to recall that Bagoas in TPB is quite aware of the ramifications of Alexander's mixing customs and promoting people from various cultures and places, trying to create one bigger whole. But at the same time, MR would have had to remember who he was, and what nationality he was and have him act accordingly -  and to not present him as all-knowing, all-understanding or non-biased.

What TPB brings to the table is a human touch, someone looking at Alexander and loving him, not necessarily seeing the military strategies and conquering plans and all that, but just the extremely charismatic person and the mesmerizing and inspiring personality. And when all is said and done, that has to be important aspects of who Alexander was and how he achieved what he did. So I don't think that's a bad angle, though of course not the only possible one.

BUT I fully agree that a film portraying any one person on the fringes of Alexander's retinue would have to not look only through that one person's eye, but cast the net a little wider. That would be the same no matter which person we're talking about, I think. Generals, or Hephaistion included.

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I would choose someone more like one of Alexander's generals or one of Alexander's youthful lieutenants.  Someone a little bit more on the ball.
I agree that would work very well, too.

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But then you're not really showing who the moviemaker thinks Alexander is.  You're getting it more like 3rd hand knowledge.
Yes - but the moviemaker could still use that to get across much about how Alexander and his conquests impacted persons and peoples, and glimpses of Alexander though his words, deeds, etc. And that can convey much. But it is a stopgap measure. The full story would fill a whole ocean and there's only a pool available!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 05:14:10 pm by Mikaela »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 05:46:36 pm »
Well, obviously all this is based on individual perception and preferences - likes/dislikes -  and so.... we won't agree on this one. I'm sorry. It must be irritating to like a film so much and have everyone else going on about how bad it was.  :-\

(I've seen it twice - one time on TV, to convince myself it was better than I remembered from the cinema. But it wasn't.)


Heh, I never convince anyone how good it is who doesn't like it, but I keep trying.  ;D

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Yes, there were only 2, but boy - did they feel never-ending! Especially the first one. I felt the  movie beat me over the head with the milling confusion of battle and after I had gotten that, just continued doing it. It was boring. Whatever battles are, I doubt they are boring, so I'd say Stone failed to get his points across to me.

Movies are so subjective.  You thought them boring, I was thrilled and actually get goosebumps every time I watch them.  Yeah, Oliver is pretty adamant about showing the confusion of battle, he's not going to clean them up or make them easier for anyone.   What would be the point of that?

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Battles may be confusing as hell, but filmmakers have an obligation to make the confusion - and the battle as such - serve a point in the narrative. To make it relevant to Alexander's particular story. This IMO did a poor job of that. I just think they went overboard in special effects, and decided once they'd gone to all the trouble (and cost!!) that the battle scenes were staying in, whether or not they really had much of a structure and point to them.

Again, movies are so subjective, I thought the battles made Oliver's points about Alexander's life quite clearly and served extremely well as punctuation points to Alexander's journey.  And I have several historical books about Alexander and the first battle is pretty much what historians believe actually happened, and the battle is called strategic genius on Alexander's part, so it's pretty funny that you think the battle didn't have much structure. 

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I don't claim to be a film-maker, I only say what worked and din't work for me. They used titles such as "Satrap", and place names such as "Sogdia, Baktria", and didn't explain what and where that is. Maybe I should have remembered that, but I didn't. And IMO it detracted from the tale. I watched the film with subtitles - I sat there wishing the translator would have taken the time to check where Sogdia was and included in in an aside in the subtitles. But nope.

Hmmm, well, the narrator - shown as an old man, Anthony Hopkins in the film, - actually had a map on the wall.  I'm no expert in geography myself, but I think most people know that Alexander conquered the Persian empire and occupied Babylon - which most everyone knows was in Iraq - and that he eventually reached India.  So I think it's just a matter of deductive reasoning and knowing what is between Iraq and and India to give you some sort of reference point to imagine where Sogdia, Baktria might have been.
 
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I bet Colin Farrell and Jared Leto would have found it more realistic and just as easy to deal with if their characters had actually made out or gone to bed at least once, rather than those deep meaningful kohl-rimmed loooong looks.

But they were such luscious, deep, meaningful, longing looks.  ;D
 
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OK. I didn't get that. But it makes sense. The mating scene was embarrassing, IMO. But I admit I got distracted by the presence of Angelina Jolie, and that may have obscured the similarities between her and Roxane.

The similarities were astounding and there were tattooed snakes all over Roxanne's body.  She was a vicious thing and so was Alexander's mother.  I loved Angelina's portrayal of Olympias.  She was soooooooo scary.  She came across as the type of mother who would make even the greatest conqueror in history run for the hills. 
 
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I thought it was about him trying to conquer the world to prove to himself and others that he was better than those dreadful parents had made him feel, but that he really always was just "running from himself" and his demons (courtesy of his parents, sure enough), and there was never far enough places to conquer to get away from that and to prove himself - to himself.

You weren't wrong.  It was that too.  Throughout the movie, all Alexander hears is how good his father was and how his father would be proud and his father is watching over him and blah blah blah until Alexander is ready to kill someone.  Here he is the greatest conqueror the known world has ever seen and all anyone can do is remind him of his father.  So when he gets fed up and finally toots his own horn, just to have his father thrown in his face yet again, he actually does kill someone.

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What TPB brings to the table is a human touch, someone looking at Alexander and loving him, not necessarily seeing the military strategies and conquering plans and all that, but just the extremely charismatic person and the mesmerizing and inspiring personality. And when all is said and done, that has to be important aspects of who Alexander was and how he achieved what he did. So I don't think that's a bad angle, though of course not the only possible one.


Well, I've been thinking about it, and Alexander has already been seen from the fringe in books with varying degrees of success.

From Bagoas' POV, which I think misses the important parts of Alexanders socio-political strategy - and - I realized Pressfield has already done this in his Alexander books - from the POV of a young lieutenant in Alexander's army, which also fails since obviously Alexander is not going to expose or confide anything really personal to an underling in his army, so what we basically need is a movie from Hephaestion's POV.

He had been with Alexander since childhood and no one knew him better.  Not only was he Alexander's lover and spouse-substitute, but a general in his army and an important - 2nd only to Alexander - vizier in his empire's government so he will have seen it all, except of course for Alexander going downhill after his death.  But that's easily portrayed from an outside character since we'll have already seen what had gone on within Alexander's head and heart from he who was most important to the man.


Offline Kerry

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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 08:37:23 pm »
I too love the movie "Alexander." I won't rattle on about why, but suffice to say that I would probably think anything about Alexander to be worthwhile, for the simple reason that it is about Alexander.

IMHO Alexander could do no wrong (though he perhaps came close when he burned Persepolis). If I had lived in Alexander's day, I feel sure I would have been one of those men who would have literally followed him to the ends of the earth, without question.

I would like to see a more intimate movie made about Alexander. Something more like "a day in the life of . . . " from the perspective of someone within his inner circle.

Re Antinous, I too do not necessarily agree with the self-sacrifice hypothesis. I only raised it because I wanted to clarify that a "suicide" (as originally stated) is not necessarily the same as a ritualistic self-sacrifice.

And I would never agree that Hadrian had moved on to another, younger eromenos ("twink"). As with Alexander following the death of his beloved Hephaestion, Hadrian went into deep mourning following the death of Antinous. Certainly, that's not denying that both Alexander and Hadrian had other lovers, both male and female. They were, after all, men of their time. Which is not of our time. It is always a fatal flaw to judge any personage from antiquity by our own stilted Judaeo-Christian standards.


 
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Re: Sword and Sandal movie updates
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 09:17:48 pm »
They were, after all, men of their time. Which is not of our time. It is always a fatal flaw to judge any personage from antiquity by our own stilted Judaeo-Christian standards.

I agree completely, Kerry! This discussion is making me want to get out my Alexander DVD and watch it again!
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