Shades of Grey by Midwest-girl

[one_of_one]

.. I guess I'm just wondering how long this epiphany will actually last, if he'll wake up in the morning and still feel the same way or if this was just a particularly good night for him and tomorrow he'll be back to his old Jack thoughts of I don't deserve any of this... I don't know. You bring up really interesting points!

That's interesting.  I've been coming at it from the view that he's had his epiphany and he'll be going forwards from now on.  But what you suggest is entirely plausible, although the way this scene was written doesn't suggest he'll be doing anything but moving in a more positive direction with his feelings about himself.  Whether he does it quickly or slowly, the direction is recovery and Ennis.  That's the impression I get, anyway.  And that might be tied in with what I was saying about the story feeling different now.  I have this sense of winding-up, so there doesn't seem much space left for Jack to do anything other than get better to a degree where he at the very least accepts Ennis on some level.

[one_of_one]

I agree too about the beginning of the chapter and said so to Amy in my comment  I absolutey loved their sweet joking around and their sweet and hot loving  It was beautiful

I thought it was wonderful that we got to go back to the flat.  I missed it so much when they left.

[midwest-girl]

Helen, I don't think Jack had an ephiphany at the end.  At least that's not how I saw it in my mind.  I saw it as a tiny step forward.  A small recognition that he had been very young when he made his choices and that maybe he deserved to *start* forgiving himself.  A small process, a small step.  He hasn't forgiven himself and I don't know that he ever will, completely.  But just a tiny move forward, recognizing himself in that kid.  Realizing that maybe not everything he did was entirely his fault. 

[midwest-girl]

Also, I don't know that Jack ever believed he'd be better off dead or that being tortured and killed was what he wanted, just that in his world it seemed the best way to save Ennis and that was his focus at the time he made the deal with Hinestroza.  Is Jack damaged?  Yes, undoubtedly.  But I've worked with a lot of damaged men and many of them come back from that.  People are remarkably resilient, with love and some pride and a purpose.  I don't think Jack's got to spend the next decade on a shrink's couch in order to live a "normal" life.  But then again, I'm not big on psychiatrists, so that's my own bias.  LOL.  Will he ever completely outrun his demons?  I doubt it.  Can he learn to live with them?  Yes.

[midwest-girl]

I know that his realisation is only the beginning, and that not everything is fixed, but if he can think that after a few weeks  it won't be long before he's fully recovered from both childhood and adult trauma.  And that just doesn't sit well with me.

I don't think that's true.  People can realize they need to forgive themselves, can begin that process, and still carry all their trauma with them still and it can take years for it to go away, if ever.  The realization that you should forgive yourself does not mean the forgiveness has happened, or even that it ever will, fully.  But it's a step.  It's one of the first steps in AA (my dad's been in for 20 years).  I guess I don't understand what you would rather have for Jack.  I mean, to move forward, he has to have some realizations about himself and his past, doesn't he?  Otherwise there's no growing for him.  And I can't very well skip forward five years or people would kill me!   

[one_of_one]

LOL - I agree, I don't think he needs to spend the next decade with a psychiatrist and, depending on the type he went to, he may end up worse off.  I agree people are very resilient, but I do generally think that is more a case of people getting on with life as best they can with the beliefs they have about themselves still intact, rather than them overcoming such beliefs. 

When I read that last passage it came across to me as if Jack was beginning to get over what had happened - you mention that he recognised that he'd been young when he made the choices he did.  Maybe I feel that he seemed to be having too many thoughts about it, perhaps was intellectualising his feelings to a greater degree than I believe likely.  And that's not to say I don't believe him to be an intelligent man.

I too believe he is capable of learning to live with his demons...he just seems to be getting on with greater alacrity than I would expect.

[one_of_one]

And I can't very well skip forward five years or people would kill me!   

 


Kidding!   

[midwest-girl]

LOL - I agree, I don't think he needs to spend the next decade with a psychiatrist and, depending on the type he went to, he may end up worse off.  I agree people are very resilient, but I do generally think that is more a case of people getting on with life as best they can with the beliefs they have about themselves still intact, rather than them overcoming such beliefs. 

When I read that last passage it came across to me as if Jack was beginning to get over what had happened - you mention that he recognised that he'd been young when he made the choices he did.  Maybe I feel that he seemed to be having too many thoughts about it, perhaps was intellectualising his feelings to a greater degree than I believe likely.  And that's not to say I don't believe him to be an intelligent man.

I too believe he is capable of learning to live with his demons...he just seems to be getting on with greater alacrity than I would expect.

I see what you're saying, but it was only a small moment in his life.  Just a five second window where he allowed himself to really *see* how young he'd been when he made some of his choices.  He's not going to magically heal and be fine, believe me.  And Ennis is going to have to accept that, the same way Jack is going to have to accept that Ennis will never be fully comfortable with being "out."  Their baggage is part of who they are and a lot of it isn't going anywhere.  But they have to have some growth, some tiny moments of forgiveness or they can't make it work, separately or together.

[one_of_one]

The realization that you should forgive yourself does not mean the forgiveness has happened, or even that it ever will, fully.  But it's a step.

It seemed that there was more to what you wrote than this.  Like I said in my first comment it did feel epiphanous, and that he'd had major realisations and that he was about to step forward into the world with the beginnings of change around him.

Although I agree with what you are saying it doesn't tally with what I was reading in the story itself - I misunderstood what was actually happening.

 

[midwest-girl]

No, you didn't necessarily misunderstand.  I *do* think he's moving forward, but at the same time that doesn't mean he won't still feel the doubt and guilt and trauma and pain.  I guess I just don't see it as an all or nothing deal--as either you're traumatized or you're not.  Can't it be both?  Can't he still be suffering and have the guilt and worthiness issues at the same time he's working on them?  I mean, trying to get better and do better doesn't mean you *are* better, it just means you're taking the steps.