After watching my DVD a half Dozen times

[vkm91941]

I am firmly back in the Jack was murdered camp.   The "flash-back" of what happens seems to be more Lureen's to me than Ennis's.  And that little cry/moan she makes when she realizes who Ennis is, is her realization that Jack had the same relationship with Ennis that he was having with Randall. As Annie says in her story...the little voice is as cold as snow.

You know that old addage you don't shit wear you eat, will I've come to the conclusion that Jack did indeed take up with Randall and he was telling the truth when he told Ennis he almost got caught a coupla times sneaking out to be with the "wife"(when actually he was sneaking out to be with Randall)....that time he did get caught and it cost him his life..

I may change my mind after another half dozen viewing but this is where I'm sitting rightnow  pretty strong in that conviction.

[rtprod]

I'm with you, 100%.  But still think Ennis is the one "seeing" the murder, rather than Lureen. 
rt

[EnnisDelMar]

I am firmly back in the Jack was murdered camp.   The "flash-back" of what happens seems to be more Lureen's to me than Ennis's.  And that little cry/moan she makes when she realizes who Ennis is, is her realization that Jack had the same relationship with Ennis that he was having with Randall. As Annie says in her story...the little voice is as cold as snow.

You know that old addage you don't shit wear you eat, will I've come to the conclusion that Jack did indeed take up with Randall and he was telling the truth when he told Ennis he almost got caught a coupla times sneaking out to be with the "wife"(when actually he was sneaking out to be with Randall)....that time he did get caught and it cost him his life..

I may change my mind after another half dozen viewing but this is where I'm sitting rightnow  pretty strong in that conviction.

I've always thought it was more Lureen thinking about what really happened as she was telling Ennis 'what happened', so I agree.

[YaadPyar]

I've always thought most of what you said Vic.  The only difference that I get is that in the story it's cleary Ennis who is imagining/understanding the situation - from his perspective completely in the story.

But I'm in agreement on all counts otherwise.  The possibility of the tire accident to me completely changes the meaning of this story, although I know other's dont' agree.

[rtprod]

Celeste,

I agree with you so completely.  The whole exploding tire just isn't plausible to me, and Lureen, as played by Hathaway is obviously lying.  Now I'm going to catch hell for this, but it significantly softens one of the story's principal themes--an intolerant society of the time--if Jack's death was an accident.  Additionally, it's foreshadowed so heavily in the campfire scene....

Here comes the hate mail....

rt

[MaineWriter]

I agree, Vic, and have always been in the Jack murdered camp. Lureen knows it which I take from the monotonic recitation of the accident, while Ennis is picturing what went on in his mind.

[Aloysius J. Gleek]

rtprod,

Just to keep terminology straight, until now, 'tire iron" has meant hate killing, as in "They took a tire iron to him," and "So now he knew it was the tire iron."

The accidental death version as recounted by Lureen, "The tire blew up, broke his jaw..." is the opposing view.

I am a tire ironist myself--by which I mean I believe it was no accident.

[YaadPyar]

I am a tire ironist myself--by which I mean I believe it was no accident.

I've GOT to go back to the cult thread, which Andrew has lovingly archived, and look at the division between the 'tire-ironists' and .   Like the division between the Junians and Septemberists.

Meryl - Oh High Priestess of the BBM Cult - help us out here!!

[RouxB]

Nope, not me. I am in the "we don't know" camp. Nobody said it and we didn't see-nor did Ennis- it so it can't be "known". Even when Ennis thinks to himself "he knew" how could he??

It has been stated by Ang Lee that the flashback was indeed Ennis's, not Lureen's. He stated the entire scene was from Ennis's POV.

I'm not saying he wasn't murdered, I'm just saying from my perspective there is no reason to think that. The only reason that scenario comes into play is because of Ennis's experience with Rich as a child.

[rtprod]

Hi Jimmy,

You are right -- I agree it it was the tire iron.  I'll amend my post!

rt