After watching my DVD a half Dozen times

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm with RouxB and littleguitar, which is to say I'm agnostic. I don't think the mystery has a "real" answer. I think it's meant to remain for the viewer forever ambiguous, because that's how it is for Ennis, and that way we can share his pain of uncertainty, which must be awful. Not knowing the fate of a loved one can often be worse, I've been told by people whose family members went missing, than knowing the worst.

Also, to me the movie focuses less on the threat of society's actual intolerance, real though that is, than it does on the effect that intolerance has on an individual: Ennis. A gay bashing would imply that Ennis's fears of living with Jack were at least somewhat sensible and well-founded. But to me, it's sadder, more subtle and more profound to think that his society- and dad-induced fear and shame (which might inspire a faulty understanding of Jack's death) was the biggest obstacle to his own happiness. However, it's all left open to interpretation -- and you all are right that Jack's Randall fling and well-established openness are strong arguments the other way -- which is another reason I don't think we're supposed to know for sure what happened to Jack.

latjoreme,

While I'm not abandonning my long-held faith in the tire iron, please accept my compliments for making a very persuasive case. And I will agree with you: There really is no answer. Annie Proulx and Ang Lee left it deliberately ambiguous.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I just wrote this over at the IMDb board.  Silly me, still trying to slay the trolls, I know, but the good guys got to discussing this very topic and of course I *had* to jump in.  Here's my $0.02, and then some:

While I love ambiguity in movies for the reason Diana and Jake touched on at the Aero screening (I'm not one of those people who has to have a reason for everything - I think life is random and there often is no reason why horrible things happen, but I agree that's hard for a lot of people to take), it's quite clear to me that Jack was murdered. I really believe that the scene in the bar early on where Jack tries to pick up Jimbo the rodeo clown, then Jimbo goes and says something to his buddies at the pool table about him and they all turn to look at him ominously is intended to be foreshadowing of that murder. That was not in the short story. And the first time I saw the movie, I thought right then, "Oh, no. Jack's gonna get himself into trouble later, isn't he?" When I saw the lamb slaughtered by coyotes later on after they first consummate their passion, I knew it for sure. That also was not in the short story.

In the short story, Ennis imagines Jack's murder while talking with Lureen on the phone, and then later, when he's at the Twist house in Lightning Flat, as soon as John Twist says that bit about "...and then this spring, he's gonna bring some other fella up here, some rancher neighbor a his," the narrative says, "So Ennis knew it was the tire iron."

I also think that if Jack really just died accidentally, the movie is not on the level of a Greek or Shakespearean tragedy like I'm convinced the screenwriters and Ang Lee want it to be. The real tragedy is that the very thing Ennis most feared would happen if they were open about their love happened anyway, or maybe even BECAUSE he was too afraid to be open about it. That's Romeo and Juliet. If it's just an accident, it's Love Story or Brian's Song or (gag) Titanic. And Romeo and Juliet was what they were going for. I absolutely believe that.

Oooh, Barb, just had to say I love the comparison to Shakespearean tragedy! Just the sort of thing I was groping for in writing about the "mythic" character of the story.

Ahh, this thread takes me back to the good old days on the old Tremblay homestead, before the Troll Uprising. I guess it also answers the question as to the effect of the DVD release: It's reinvigorating us!

[Kd5000]

Oh god, I try to stay away from this subject. It's like wondering what happened at the end of AMerican Beauty. Was he killed by the marine, by his wife or someone else.  I finally just let it go... 

Was this film at all influenced by Titanic? I know, how dare you. The character in there dies a random death for lack of a better word choice. He's not hunted down and killed by ROse's former fiancee now is he... 

I suppose the point is that Ennis squandered his opportunity...

I posted this on the other board.  Jack was drinking alot, per Lureen. Had he been drinking while changing the flat?  IF so carelessness.  He coulnd't handle a can opener, remember that. Not very mechanically inclined.   Of course, if he had been drinking, he could have said the wrong thing, or done something reckless.

Personally, I think his increased drinking was a sign that he had given up on life. The last encounter is different from the book. I think in the film, there is a snap. Jack realizes his dreams of being with Ennis have come to naught. He begins a downward spiral. A death wish for lack of a better word choice. He has nothing to live for, I suppose.   

Jake G said his character died when he realized that he couldn't be with ENnis. Was that what Jake was getting it?  Jack Twist self-destructed after their last encounter at the lake.

Of course, I could be in denial, not wanting to wish the worse on Jack Twist. There was enough pathos and sadness in this story that it's almost overwhelming. Actually,  I think Romeo and Juliet had a better fate. At least they martyered themselves over love, after realizing they couldnt' be together in this world.  Ennis is just left to broad on... a living death so to speak, thinking everyday of how life could have been so different. 

I usually hate muddled ending, but I suppose in this case, it went along well with the storyline

[ednbarby]

I agree, Vic.  So not only does he have the loss and the horror of the doing of it to deal with for the rest of his life, he has his own guilt at probably causing it.  And that's exactly what makes my heart ache *so* much for him in the end.  I can feel all of that pain, and it's just wrenching.  Hence the delayed reaction people have, I think, too.  Even if they don't consciously accept how Jack died, on a subconscious level they do.  Well, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it, anyway. 

[starboardlight]

I am firmly back in the Jack was murdered camp.   The "flash-back" of what happens seems to be more Lureen's to me than Ennis's.  And that little cry/moan she makes when she realizes who Ennis is, is her realization that Jack had the same relationship with Ennis that he was having with Randall. As Annie says in her story...the little voice is as cold as snow.

You know that old addage you don't shit wear you eat, will I've come to the conclusion that Jack did indeed take up with Randall and he was telling the truth when he told Ennis he almost got caught a coupla times sneaking out to be with the "wife"(when actually he was sneaking out to be with Randall)....that time he did get caught and it cost him his life..

I may change my mind after another half dozen viewing but this is where I'm sitting rightnow  pretty strong in that conviction.

welp, Diana Osana herself said that she still goes back and forth on what she actually thinks happened to Jack. I'm sure we'll all oscilate just as much.

[monimm18]

Barb, I was waiting for your reply! After seeing your post on TOB, I was aching for the Shakespeare/classical tragedy reference to pop up here. Like I said on the OB, the tire iron would definitely be the type of ending worthy of a great tragedy.

I always believed in tire iron version, almost even in the story, but kept telling myself it's an ambiguous issue, subject to interpretation, because so many people here, whom I trust intellectually argued for the tire accident, and because I forgot that, in great literature as in great films, things are not bluntly stated, but suggested and implied.  

I think Rontrigger said something on TOB that finally cleared my position on this issue.

Rontrigger: I once posted this on a thread dealing with this "Accident/Murder War" that ended up with hundreds of posts: I know full well that the accident is the less likely of the two scenarios--murder is more likely. But I am so emotionally caught up in these characters that I want desperately to believe that Jack was taken away suddenly and never knew what happened.

I realized that was the only reason why I would consider the accident as a possibility - too hard to believe that Jack had to endure all that hate and brutality on top of the physical pain before his death. It's a much uglier death than one bears to imagine, I think. The problem is, that's a subjective way of looking at things - it didn't happen, because I can't handle the truth (couldn't think of a better phrase, sorry.).

So, I'm firmly in the tire iron group... But, not trying to convince anyone to change their mind.  

[ednbarby]

I know.  I can't handle it, either.  The truth really is unbearable. 

I think realizing that truth from Ennis' point of view in the end is what made weep so much, I thought I'd asphyxiate from it during the Lightning Flat scenes the second and third times I saw Brokeback in the theater.  And it's what made me start sobbing in the midst of singing "...And when no hope was left in sight on that starry, starry night, you took your life as lovers often do" to my son the night after the day I saw it for the first time.

[delalluvia]

Still ambiguous.

Whether Jack died by tire iron or drowning (tire rim didn't kill him) doesn't lessen the idea of the tragedy.  The Argonautica was a Greek tragedy.  How Jason died at the end was mundane.  He was crying in the shade of his old rotted boat and it fell on him and killed him.

The story is STILL tragic regardless and so is BBM.

The last line of the short story shows that even Ennis has his doubts.

There was some space between what he knew and what he tried to believe...

[monimm18]

OK, Del, you're gonna hate me for this one, but I had to do it, not to argument my tire iron theory, but because too many times I see these two literary forms mixed up in people's arguments. The italicized parts are from Wikipedia, my own Encyclopedia and Able Media :

Tragedy: form of drama in which a noble hero (the protagonist) meets a fate inherent in the drama's action.  
Drama: a composition presenting a story in dialogue, to be performed by actors; a play.

Or:

Greek tragedy - a literary composition written to be performed by actors in which a central character called a tragic protagonist or hero suffers some serious misfortune which is not accidental and therefore meaningless, but is significant in that the misfortune is logically connected with the hero's actions. Tragedy stresses the vulnerability of human beings whose suffering is brought on by a combination of human and divine actions, but is generally undeserved with regard to its harshness. This genre, however, is not totally pessimistic in its outlook. Although many tragedies end in misery for the characters, there are also tragedies in which a satisfactory solution of the tragic situation is attained.

Tragedies are plays that have a common theme: humans dearing to defy the gods, fate, or societal order, and being punished for that, by paying with their own lives or losing those dearest to them. The punishment is usually administered in a symbolic or very dramatic fashion - suicide, violent death, etc.

"Argonautica" is an adventure, or epic poem, not a tragedy, even if it has its gory and tragic components. It's a collection of several adventures, with one (in this case) or more central characters at its core, like the Odyssey and the Iliad.

An epic is a long poem which tells a story involving gods, heroes and heroic exploits. Since the epic is by its very nature lengthy, it tends to be rather loosely organized. Not every episode is absolutely necessary to the main story and digressions are not uncommon. You will notice how different in this regard is the genre of drama, in which every episode tends to be essential to the plot and digressions are inappropriate.

*running for cover*




 

[delalluvia]

OK, Del, you're gonna hate me for this one, but I had to do it, not to argument my tire iron theory, but because too many times I see these two literary forms mixed up in people's arguments. The italicized parts are from Wikipedia, my own Encyclopedia and Able Media :

Tragedy: form of drama in which a noble hero (the protagonist) meets a fate inherent in the drama's action. 
Drama: a composition presenting a story in dialogue, to be performed by actors; a play.

Or:

Greek tragedy - a literary composition written to be performed by actors in which a central character called a tragic protagonist or hero suffers some serious misfortune which is not accidental and therefore meaningless, but is significant in that the misfortune is logically connected with the hero's actions. Tragedy stresses the vulnerability of human beings whose suffering is brought on by a combination of human and divine actions, but is generally undeserved with regard to its harshness. This genre, however, is not totally pessimistic in its outlook. Although many tragedies end in misery for the characters, there are also tragedies in which a satisfactory solution of the tragic situation is attained.

Tragedies are plays that have a common theme: humans dearing to defy the gods, fate, or societal order, and being punished for that, by paying with their own lives or losing those dearest to them. The punishment is usually administered in a symbolic or very dramatic fashion - suicide, violent death, etc.

"Argonautica" is an adventure, or epic poem, not a tragedy, even if it has its gory and tragic components. It's a collection of several adventures, with one (in this case) or more central characters at its core, like the Odyssey and the Iliad.

An epic is a long poem which tells a story involving gods, heroes and heroic exploits. Since the epic is by its very nature lengthy, it tends to be rather loosely organized. Not every episode is absolutely necessary to the main story and digressions are not uncommon. You will notice how different in this regard is the genre of drama, in which every episode tends to be essential to the plot and digressions are inappropriate.

*running for cover*

Not at all, mon.     I stand corrected.  However, I will dispute that dropping any classic references, the Argonautica is not a tragedy.  It is certainly not a happy-ending type of story/poem/adventure tale or slice-of-life adventure, so taken in that vein, the tale of Jason and Medea and his family is a tragedy.