Author Topic: Red and green  (Read 10630 times)

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Red and green
« on: December 05, 2006, 12:23:00 am »
So...  I just watched the last half hour of the movie on HBO, and damned if I didn't notice something else I never had before.  In the Lightning Flat scene, when Mrs. Twist offers Ennis the coffee and piece a cherry cake, in the kitchen, not only is the cherry in the cake red, but a jar filled with some kind of red liquid above it, and what looks like a metal can painted red above that.  Then I look to the right, and on the counter is a large vividly green ceramic bowl with something red peeping out of the top of it - an apple, maybe?  And I think... Christmas.  Not because that's what time of year it is (it was October or so, wasn't it?), but just... Christmas.  Then the camera pans to Ennis at the kitchen table saying "Can't begin to tell ya how bad I feel..."  Above his head just slightly to the right hangs his hat on the wall.  Mrs. Twist is to his right, Mr. Twist to his left.  The composition suddenly strikes me as looking like... a cross.  Or maybe three crosses, like in the beginning of the movie.

Coincidence?  I think not.
No more beans!

Offline Meryl

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,205
  • There's no reins on this one....
Re: Red and green
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 02:02:58 am »
Very interesting, Barb!  I've been wondering about the placement of that hat on the wall, too.  A halo?  Jack's spirit hovering?  Gotta be somethin'.

I like the idea of the symbolic trinity, too, and that's a great little bookend when you compare it with the three telephone poles at the beginning.  Of course there is a real crucifix on the wall by the kitchen, too.

I posted somewhere awhile back about the use of red after the Scene at the Lake.  Casey Cornelius once wrote that all the scenes after that had a kind of hallucinatory quality, and there does seem to be a subtle but real draining of color out of the movie towards the end.  But dropped into the midst of these drab scenes are touches of red.

Ennis wears the same grey overshirt in the last four scenes, grey being the muted form of Jack's signature blue and also suggestive of Ennis's depressed frame of mind. The shirt has an interesting red detail right over the heart like a symbolic wound. In the same way, each of the four last scenes has a neutral palette punctuated by bits of red.

Here's a painting by Hammershoi that one of the IMDb posters postulated was an inspiration for the Twist ranch scene:



At theTwist ranch, in addition to those things you mentioned, Jack's father has a red belt, Jack's mother's dress has a small red detail in its print and her hair has a reddish tint.  There are patches of red on Jack's bedspread and clothing, and finally, dark red on the bloodstained shirts.

The dreamlike quality of the scene is heightened subtly, I think, by the red dropped into the otherwise neutral tones. It does remind me of how we recall incidents in our lives--a kind of general impression punctuated by more vivid moments. If Ang Lee was trying to give us the feeling of being inside Ennis's memory, this may have been one of the ways he chose to do it.

Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Red and green
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 11:40:23 am »
Beautifully written, Meryl.  And that painting is stunningly evocative of the scene.  Come to think of it, in that shot I mentioned with the amazing composition that made me think of the trinity, Ennis was in the middle with the hat right over his head like a halo, and the cross over that.  Wow.
No more beans!

Offline Meryl

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,205
  • There's no reins on this one....
Re: Red and green
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 12:48:12 pm »
Thanks, Barb.  I love this scene because it's so stark, but for all that, it holds such a wealth of associations.  Did you ever read Casey Cornelius's "Classical Allusions" thread over on IMDb?  I think that's one reason I became a die-hard Brokie. 

I think Ang Lee has said this is one of his favorite scenes in the movie.  It's clear that every detail was considered carefully, and the cumulative power of all those small things is so great that I think it will become one of those scenes that film historians routinely refer to as one of the best ever put on film.
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Red and green
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 01:29:42 pm »
Thanks, Barb.  I love this scene because it's so stark, but for all that, it holds such a wealth of associations.  Did you ever read Casey Cornelius's "Classical Allusions" thread over on IMDb?  I think that's one reason I became a die-hard Brokie. 

I think Ang Lee has said this is one of his favorite scenes in the movie.  It's clear that every detail was considered carefully, and the cumulative power of all those small things is so great that I think it will become one of those scenes that film historians routinely refer to as one of the best ever put on film.

Yes, I have read that thread and I think it made me even more of a die-hard Brokie, too.

And I quite agree with your last sentence.
No more beans!

Offline Lynne

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,291
  • "The world's always ending." --Ianto Jones
    • Elizabeth Warren for Massachusetts
Re: Red and green
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2007, 06:56:14 pm »
Those are great observations, Barb!  And terrific analysis too, Barb and Meryl.  I'm going to watch for the additional trinity placements and for red after Jack's death the next time I watch the movie, maybe tonight...It's been months!
"Laß sein. Laß sein."

Offline RossInIllinois

  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
Re: Red and green
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2007, 12:41:10 pm »
So...  I just watched the last half hour of the movie on HBO, and damned if I didn't notice something else I never had before.  In the Lightning Flat scene, when Mrs. Twist offers Ennis the coffee and piece a cherry cake, in the kitchen, not only is the cherry in the cake red, but a jar filled with some kind of red liquid above it, and what looks like a metal can painted red above that.  Then I look to the right, and on the counter is a large vividly green ceramic bowl with something red peeping out of the top of it - an apple, maybe?  And I think... Christmas.  Not because that's what time of year it is (it was October or so, wasn't it?), but just... Christmas.  Then the camera pans to Ennis at the kitchen table saying "Can't begin to tell ya how bad I feel..."  Above his head just slightly to the right hangs his hat on the wall.  Mrs. Twist is to his right, Mr. Twist to his left.  The composition suddenly strikes me as looking like... a cross.  Or maybe three crosses, like in the beginning of the movie.

Coincidence?  I think not.


I think its a Coincidence.  ;)

Offline HerrKaiser

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,708
Re: Red and green
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2007, 02:38:56 pm »
Nothing (with some exceptions) on a movie set is a coincidence. all details are painfully set up by the props folks, set designers, director, lighting man, etc. So, the use of the props noted above and their color was well thought out, I am sure, in order to stage the set in the most artistic and appropriate tone possible.

that said, their underlying or metyphorical or mystical meaning is very hard to ascertain. Most film sets and their directors actually do not want 'hidden' or very abscure things in their films that are hard to find or see. they want the message to hit the mass audiences in a direct or semi direct way. If such things go unnoticed, so is their message, and no director I know would want this. Yes, some may have an idea that he/she wants their audiences to 'think' or 'study' their works for the hidden meanings, but hmmmm, that seems like a long shot for this particular scene, in my opinion. thanks!

Offline RossInIllinois

  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
Re: Red and green
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2007, 12:42:26 am »
Nothing (with some exceptions) on a movie set is a coincidence. all details are painfully set up by the props folks, set designers, director, lighting man, etc. So, the use of the props noted above and their color was well thought out, I am sure, in order to stage the set in the most artistic and appropriate tone possible.

that said, their underlying or metyphorical or mystical meaning is very hard to ascertain. Most film sets and their directors actually do not want 'hidden' or very abscure things in their films that are hard to find or see. they want the message to hit the mass audiences in a direct or semi direct way. If such things go unnoticed, so is their message, and no director I know would want this. Yes, some may have an idea that he/she wants their audiences to 'think' or 'study' their works for the hidden meanings, but hmmmm, that seems like a long shot for this particular scene, in my opinion. thanks!


I have worked in the Motion Picture business for 25 years now. Yes sets are "Designed" but set dressing never is. Nothing you see as part of a set is a "prop" its set dressing. Props are used by actors. The toaster the bowls etc are all set dressing. The Cherry Cake and coffee however is "the property departments." responsibility and is considered a prop as is all food seen on movies. The placement of furnature and wall hangings are done by the set decorator working from a master plan from the Production Designer and Art Director head of the art Department. The Movie Director seldom gets involved with set decorating or furnature placement unless something looks grossly wrong to him. In most cases the Director will communicate to the Production designer his vision of what he thinks the sets should look like early on in the pre production process. Most Directors give there Art Department full responsibility to decorate the set according to the script and the Art Directors vision of it. The Director is usually way to busy with the talent and keeping the movie on time and on budget to worry about set decorating, props, etc. thats why the Production and Art Director exists. The Director never has total controll of any big budget film he just has "some creative input" contribution to it as does the Studio, the Producers and the Department Heads. Its a much more complex process than it seems, and much more of a group collaboration than you would think.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 03:22:32 am by RossInIllinois »

Offline HerrKaiser

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,708
Re: Red and green
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2007, 11:11:37 am »
I was trying to simpliify the process for everyone; I've also been in the industry for over 35 years never have seen a project with that lack of directorial control. Nonetheless, and perhaps regardless, what was seen on the screen and the placement of background items and the juxtaposition of such was very unlikely to have been intended as mystical or hidden-meaning type stuff.