Author Topic: Mary Renault Book Discussion  (Read 80785 times)

injest

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Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 08:59:09 am »
I am really enjoying our conversation about Mary Renaults books...I think I might split it off into its own thread!

Good night!

I look forward to talking again!


Offline delalluvia

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Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 02:11:49 pm »
The Persian Boy is my favourite. I've read it many times over the years.

"The certainty is that he never became uxorious. With Hephaestion he remained in love, at a depth where the physical relationship becomes almost irrelevant; and years later Bagoas was still his recognized eromenos. He had been disinhibited, not reversed, and had now achieved the normal Greek bisexuality."

Kerry

I very much enjoyed Mary Renault's books on Alexander.  I am curious though.  I wonder if her attitude about Hephaestion and Alexander's relationship was not based in her own attitudes about love and sex where 'love is the more pure' and higher than base sex.

Macedonian male sexual relationships did not completely ape the classic Greek ones.  Alexander and Hephaestion, so close in age, their relationship constant throughout their lives, flew in the face of the typical erastes/eromenos model of Athens. 

Certainly Alexander was influenced by Aristotle's attitudes toward men and sex, but that didn't stop him from having sex with Bagoas and the odd page who caught his eye.  In fact, or as far as we know, it didn't stop him at all.  Why would we assume that his sexual relationship with Hephaestion 'evolved' into something that didn't include sexual relations?  Indeed, there is the story of Hephaestion joining Alexander's generals around Alexander's tent before a big battle and saying the equivalent of 'good day' instead of 'good morning' implying that he had already bade Alexander a 'good morning'.  He was caught out and everyone apparently knew it.

Alexander's appetitie for Bagoas/boys didn't fade throughout his life, why should his desire for Hephaestion fade either, especially with love as its basis and the oft commented fact that Hephaestion was one of the best looking men around?

'The Persian Boy' is not one of my favorites.  Her book on Alexander's life and 'Fire from Heaven' I like better.  I guess because in 'Fire from Heaven' she makes it quite clear that Hephaestion is passionately in love with Alexander, loyal to the death and constantly frustrated by Alexander's attitude toward sex.  Alexander is coy and reticent to the point that Hephaestion thinks Alexander has a phobia about it.

Since Renault carried over the same characters into 'The Persian Boy', I find I have a lot of sympathy for how Renault's Hephaestion must have felt to see Alexander - the man he is deeply in love with and always desired - suddenly discover he likes sex a lot, enough to have a 'boy' live in his tent with him - leaving Hephaestion out in the cold.

I imagine the rejection and constant heartbreak of Hephaestion must have felt whenever I read 'The Persian Boy', so it's not one of my favorites.

As for the original post request - gah, I have waaaaaaaaaaay too many lines from books and movies that I love.  I'll try to remember a few and post as I do.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 02:18:08 pm by delalluvia »

injest

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Mary Renault Book Discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 04:23:32 pm »
I go back to the phrase that we should judge people by their own ages and not by our own moral standards...

there does not appear (to me) any evidence that casual sexual activity was frowned upon or considered cheating...the concept is a Victorian one to me...

at that time most men had multiple partners throughout their lives...slaves kept for sexual purposes, the famous hetarias of Athens...while I am sure Hephaistion was not OVERJOYED at the presence of a sex slave in Alexanders household it would not have been an unusual arrangement at all in that period. Remember also that most soldiers took women and boys from conquered towns to use as concubines even though most had wives back in Macedon. And in Persia itself harems were the norm..

Offline delalluvia

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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 08:10:26 pm »
I go back to the phrase that we should judge people by their own ages and not by our own moral standards...

there does not appear (to me) any evidence that casual sexual activity was frowned upon or considered cheating...the concept is a Victorian one to me...

at that time most men had multiple partners throughout their lives...slaves kept for sexual purposes, the famous hetarias of Athens...while I am sure Hephaistion was not OVERJOYED at the presence of a sex slave in Alexanders household it would not have been an unusual arrangement at all in that period. Remember also that most soldiers took women and boys from conquered towns to use as concubines even though most had wives back in Macedon. And in Persia itself harems were the norm..

Not so much as cheating, but the idea that Renault's Hephaestion longed for, hungered for, more physical affection from Alexander and instead Alexander gave it to Bagoas and pages and his wives and concubines.  I'm sure Hephaestion had his own pieces around, but it's not the same as getting it from the person you love and it appears from the 'Persian Boy' that Alexander rarely gave in to Hephaestion's physical desires.

Sad for him.  Though you are right, Hephaestion was probably not happy at all, but he would not lower himself to feel things like jealousy as if he were in competition with slaves and dancing boys.

Offline Kerry

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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 09:03:26 pm »
One of my favorite things about The Persian Boy is the tender love that Bagoas expresses for Alexander...here is this slave that has spent the last four years being sold to men and as a concubine but he seems so innocent in the love he develops for Alexander...

"But although in my calling I felt as old as time, my heart, which no one had trained, was young, and suddenly it mastered me"

these are the first books I have ever seen that accept homosexuality completely...it is not presented as an 'issue' just a normal part of life...(and isn't it?)

It is my understanding that Bagoas was no mere catamite. He was of noble birth, whose family had somehow fallen from favour (I forget the full story just now). Importantly, it must be remembered that he was Darius' eromenos, and had enjoyed a favoured place, as such, at the Great King's court. Alexander knew this and treated him accordingly, with respect (and love).

Kerry 
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« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2006, 09:08:01 pm »
hi Kerry!

you promised a description of Hephaistion from "The Nature of Alexander"!!

I ranked her books last night and realized I had left off the Theseus books!!  :P

Offline delalluvia

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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2006, 09:21:02 pm »
hi Kerry!

you promised a description of Hephaistion from "The Nature of Alexander"!!


Was there one, Kerry?  I don't recall.  Just the basic 'he was taller, better looking' and I think the color of his hair was mentioned.  About it.

Offline Kerry

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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2006, 09:28:59 pm »
Alexander's appetitie for Bagoas/boys didn't fade throughout his life, why should his desire for Hephaestion fade either, especially with love as its basis and the oft commented fact that Hephaestion was one of the best looking men around?

Since Renault carried over the same characters into 'The Persian Boy', I find I have a lot of sympathy for how Renault's Hephaestion must have felt to see Alexander - the man he is deeply in love with and always desired - suddenly discover he likes sex a lot, enough to have a 'boy' live in his tent with him - leaving Hephaestion out in the cold.

I imagine the rejection and constant heartbreak of Hephaestion must have felt whenever I read 'The Persian Boy', so it's not one of my favorites.

When we look back at the ancient world, it is very important to remember that it is an era that existed long before our present Christian era, with all its moral hang-ups and prudery. Alexander, Hephaestion and Bagoas were men of their times, not ours. As for Bagoas being a "boy," it is my understanding that he was a "youth" when he met Alexander, not a child. I can find no evidence that Alexander had any relationships with "boys." In this, he was proudly Macedonian, not Athenian! His preference seems to be for handsome young men and women, probably in that order (LOL). The belief of the day was that  men were for love and women were for babies (i.e., to father children by). Though this sounds chauvinistic and sexist when viewed through our "civilized" (hey, let's not try to define that term LOL), rose-tinted glasses, it was all that they knew and not unusual to them in the least. As for Hephaestion, I believe Alexander never ceased to love him. This can be proved by the way he mourned and deified him following his death. And by the "nervous breakdown" he experience following Hephaestion's death, which ultimately led to his own death. Why did Alexander "cheat on" Hephaestion? Again, we are here arrogantly and inappropriately applying our own modern moral code onto an ancient people. Alexander was the King. He did it "because he could." It's that simple! Hephaestion would have known and understood this, and loved Alexander no less because of it.
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« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2006, 09:32:30 pm »
according to the book Bagoas was sixteen...

Offline Kerry

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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2006, 10:44:36 pm »
From Mary Renault’s “The Nature of Alexander”:

He (Hephaestion) is described by Curtius as being taller than Alexander, and better looking, in which case he was certainly handsome. No historian states plainly whether they were physically lovers; but Plutarch says that on the site of Troy, Alexander laid a wreath on Achilles’ tomb, and Hephaestion on Patroclus’. In spite of Homer’s reticence, classical Greece assumed the heroes’ love to be sexual. It would be characteristic of Alexander’s passion for personal loyalties to make so public an avowal. Olympias, at any rate, was wildly jealous of their attachment and railed by letter at Hephaestion half across Asia. A fragmentary retort of his survived: “Stop quarrelling with me; not that in any case I shall much care. You know Alexander means more to me than anyone.”

And this regarding the famous faux pas of the Persian Queen Mother, Sisygambis, gives us another insight into Hephaestion‘s handsome, noble bearing:

Arrian admits that the event has accumulated legend. He, Curtius and Plutarch vary only slightly, and all to the same effect. Alexander brought Hephaestion with him. They walked in together, both simply dressed. Hephaestion’s looks and presence first struck the women, used to associate height with royalty, and the venerable Sisygambis began to prostrate herself before him (Hephaestion). He drew back; the harem eunuchs made warning signs; in distress she began again with the King (Alexander). He (Alexander) stepped forward and raised her up. “Never mind, Mother. You made no mistake, he too is Alexander.” Mystifying as this may have seemed when passed through an interpreter, she thanked him with regal dignity.

And this description of Alexander is quite striking:

Alexander’s reign began in 336BC. He was little over twenty. 

“His physical looks are best portrayed in the statues Lysippus made of him. (Plutarch does not divulge which of Alexander’s own contemporaries, if any, expressed this view.) And he approved being sculpted by him alone. (But he must have licensed a number of others.) For this artist has caught exactly those idiosyncrasies which many of his successors and friends later tried to imitate - the pose of his neck, tilted a little leftward, and his liquid eyes. Apelles’ painting, ‘The Thunder-Wielder,’ did not get his complexion right, but made it too dark and tanned; for he was blond, they say, shading to ruddy on the breast and face.”

His liquid eyes were grey. Their expressiveness altered Greek artistic convention. All important portrait heads feature a heavy bulge of the forehead above the brows (allowing for idealization, probably even more marked in life), caused perhaps by the development of the frontal lobes of the brain; and the loosely waving, heavy mane of hair, springing from the peak, its individual cut sloped down to the base of the neck when in south Greece the short curly crop was in fashion. Arrian, both of whose main sources were men who saw him often, says that he was very handsome.

In Aristoxenus’ memoir it is said that a very pleasant scent came from his skin, and that there was a fragrance in his breath and all his body which permeated the clothes he wore.


LOL

Kerry
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 10:58:17 pm by Kerry »
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