Author Topic: Jake In Drag??  (Read 43923 times)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2007, 06:59:02 pm »



I dunno, I didn't think the monologue stuff was horrific -- the humor wasn't mean-spirited -- but part of me agrees with Jess. Besides, if you're going to make jokes involving gay people or any minority group, it's not just more PC, but also funnier, fresher and more original to make ones that challenge or upend stereotypes rather than reinforce them.

For example, I liked Jon Stewart's Oscar night joke about how the film Capote was made "to show that not all gay men are virile cowboys." Does that challenge stereotype or reinforce it? I suppose you could see one that either way, but at the very least it seemed fresher than what SNL did.

But let's face it, SNL just isn't very well written. Which always baffles me, because The Daily Show and The Colbert Report manage to be consistently funny four nights a week, and SNL is only on once a week, but rarely is outright funny. Yet you'd think SNL would attract better writers; it's higher profile, and NBC probably pays better than Comedy Central.

 ???



But then, where was all the outrage with "Will & Grace"? That show regurgitated decades old gay stereotypes every single week. Will and Jack? Give me a break. Jack the flaming queen and Will the preppy compulsive "neat freak". I guarantee you Will & Grace was a show that offended many gay Americans; myself included.

What about "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Another offensive show to many gay people. Carson Kressley? That man flames like a welding torch. He IS the typical gay stereotype.  Where's the anger?

These kinds of shows do far more harm to the gay community than a "Jake in drag" skit on SNL could ever do.

Jake in drag was funny. I talked with a few of my gay friends about the show. Nobody felt offended. They loved it. Go watch a drag show sometime. I have seen drag shows that make Jake's Jennifer Hudson impersonation look conservative and tame.

I'm not mad or angry at all, and I hope this post doesn't give someone the impression I am. I'm just trying to make a point. And I agree with Geri. SNL sucks. I watched it all the time in the 1970's and 80's. It's just not funny anymore. But I thought Jake did a good job last night. Let's just have a good laugh over this and move on!  :)
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2007, 07:07:24 pm »
I finally got the file downloaded and had time to watch it. And... well, I've got two responses. One... holy &*(% Jake has gorgeous arms and shoulders. *cough* But the guys in the audience did grate on me, and I'm not sure if it's because the fanboys in cowboy hats were insulting, or because they were so painfully over-acted cariacatures. I mean, I laughed at the New Yorker cartoon with the guy saying "what if I don't want to be Jack or Ennis?" So I don't know if I'm offended by the stereotype put-downs, or if I'm offended by bad comedy and blank faces. BBM has made it damn hard to watch anything that lacks subtlety, you know?

So. Jake in drag? Um, he looked really good in that dress. SNL? It makes me glad I don't have television.
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2007, 07:11:30 pm »
Nothing wrong with drag or minstrel shows theoretically, but:

What Jess said about the effects of homophobia being no laughing matter, and its effect on the gay teen suicide rate.

What Katherine said about upending the stereotype being much funnier.  I am a consistent Colbert-watcher, and he frequently makes jokes that are gay-related, and those jokes are never mean-spirited or minimizing of gay rights - they support gay rights.

Also what Meryl said about comedians (and that includes many of us) really needing to see what our humor is perpetuating - and Meryl, that means a lot coming from the campiest diva I know!   Not to put you in the hot seat, but you are able to mock so much in your High Priestess persona without ever being mean-spirited.  :-*

David, your post came in as I was typing.  I haven't watched "Queer Eye," but I've seen a tiny bit of that Carson Kressley fella and he seems pretty unappealing to me.  The few times I have watched "Will and Grace," the Jack character seems to be repeatedly kissing with the Megan Mullaly character, which always confused me.  I bet a lot of people here agree with your assessment of those shows.

I'm glad we are having these conversations.  I applaud our ability to discourse without getting mean.  And as I said in my post in the "Gayest Food Ever" thread, I really do think it helps to be able to kind of practice speaking up here about what we feel is wrong, so that we can do it more confidently in less friendly situations.

Oop, now Mel's post just came in.  The thing that was funny about that New Yorker cartoon was that it turned the stereotype over too - even among gay cowboys, or gay cowboy wannabes or gay cowboy wannabe's pardners, there are those who want another choice besides Jack OR Ennis.



Offline Lumière

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2007, 08:04:50 pm »

But then, where was all the outrage with "Will & Grace"? That show regurgitated decades old gay stereotypes every single week. Will and Jack? Give me a break. Jack the flaming queen and Will the preppy compulsive "neat freak". I guarantee you Will & Grace was a show that offended many gay Americans; myself included.

What about "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Another offensive show to many gay people. Carson Kressley? That man flames like a welding torch. He IS the typical gay stereotype.  Where's the anger?

These kinds of shows do far more harm to the gay community than a "Jake in drag" skit on SNL could ever do.


David  - you said everything I had in mind on this, and so well too.  Thank you mate!  :)


Offline ednbarby

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2007, 08:16:36 pm »
Thank you from me, too, David.  I *loathe* "Will & Grace" - always have - primarily because the biggest homophobes I know think it is "a real hoot."  Don't much like "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" either for the same reason.  I find the former in particular outrageous.  And I agree that it's much more damaging than that bit on SNL, which is, after all, all about parodies.  It's much easier to take SNL's perpetuating of the stereotype in a one-shot thing than W&G's regular habit of it.

Overall, I like that SNL did one Brokeback bit (and as Meryl said, make no mistake - that's what it was) right at the get-go, got it out of the way, and *moved on.*  Beats the hell out of what Leno and Letterman et. al have been able to do, and they didn't have one of the stars on most of the times they kept beating that dead (or never-was-alive-in-the-first-place) horse.  And as I said, it's more than I expected of them.
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Offline Arad-3

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2007, 09:11:19 pm »
I agree with this !  I just hate Will and Grace!  If there is any show out there that actually makes fun of gays or encourages audience to stereotype gays, that would be it.  Their portrayals of the the gay mans lifestyles should send gay men through the roof!

It's like when Ellen first came out on her show. I was happy for her.  thought she was courageous to do that, but then caved in to the producers for the laughs and ratings and did more harm than good back then! The show had worst actors and actresses playing the goofiest gay people you could imagine.  Ruined it for me. (the show I mean) Not Ellens fault! . I cringed at what she had to endure to keep her show going!   It might of took a few years but Ellen came back with flying colors!  Thank the Lord! She is my favorite.

Just my opinion. Like A**h***s ... everyone has one!
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Offline coffeecat33

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2007, 10:10:50 pm »
I listened to Jennifer Holliday's "You're Going to Love Me" today. She has an incredible voice and Jake did an incredible parody of that song. I hope someday he makes a movie with him singing.  :D

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2007, 10:20:47 pm »
I listened to Jennifer Holliday's "You're Going to Love Me" today. She has an incredible voice and Jake did an incredible parody of that song. I hope someday he makes a movie with him singing.  :D

Can you believe I STILL have my original Dreamgirls LP I bought in 1981? (I think it was 1981). Jennifer Holliday is awesome in it! She will always be the original (and best) for that song.

But Jennifer Hudson does a really good job too. Both of them are hot! And yeah, Jake did a really good job last night. I loved it!  :)
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Offline Andrew

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2007, 11:11:14 pm »
(quote from David)
But then, where was all the outrage with "Will & Grace"? That show regurgitated decades old gay stereotypes every single week. Will and Jack? Give me a break. Jack the flaming queen and Will the preppy compulsive "neat freak". I guarantee you Will & Grace was a show that offended many gay Americans; myself included.

What about "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Another offensive show to many gay people. Carson Kressley? That man flames like a welding torch. He IS the typical gay stereotype.  Where's the anger?


Ever since I was little, I have always sat in the chair nearest the door whenever I watched television.

When I was five, it was the scary parts - my family could say whatever they liked about all pretend, it was too too real for me.  I had to know I could escape if I had to.  And now it's the cringe-inducing parts.  I watch very little television.  And the less you watch television, the less acclimatised to all that tripe you are, so you are even more sensitive to the things that cause cringing.  There are a lot of programs I have been curious about but have only been able to take random samples of.  Whenever I could stomach wandering back into the room.  And I judged these programs harshly on deliberately spotty evidence.

Far too much humor on TV is written by people who make us think they have a boring nine-to-five job writing humor.
And a lot of people turn on certain shows and laugh on cue because they just planned to have that release at that set time and damn it, insipid writing isn't going to spoil their plans.

The very best humor is a sudden totally fresh flash revelation of what it is to be a person in the world.  There is definitely a certain social convention involved, a mental setup for being amused because you expect that of a certain show or author or funny friend.  But you are not disappointed if they are good, they come through with something you would never have anticipated.  The customary support of the normal beliefs you normally sit on is knocked away and you are there shaking helplessly on the floor instead. (And I do literally slip off the couch or bed sometimes and do that).

I agree with others that small-scale unoriginal unfunny humor making fun of groups of people does huge harm in the world.  That was a memorable phrase Hannah Arendt came up with, the 'banality of evil.'  

Sometimes I deliberately expose myself to a show I know is supposed to be perpetuating stereotypes, just to see if I have been stereotyping it!  I watched Queer Eye once, early on in the first season.  Although Carson Kressley was trying hard to succeed and be accepted by being stereotypical, the others were just rather intent on their tasks, to set up a special evening in which their subject, John, would propose to his girlfriend.  John was a handsome goodnatured young man who responded rather gracefully when Kressley made a stupid, totally fake pass at him.  As the culmination, a elaborate pavillion for two lavishly strewn with rose petals was raised in the courtyard.  And then the last thing I expected happened.  In spite of all the distractions and frivolities of the filming, this was clearly a very important day to John.  And when he was suddenly allowed to see the magical pavillion, he suddenly got a catch in his voice.  The hokeyness and commercialism of the show suddenly disappeared for a few seconds and you felt his intense gratitude for these five generous strangers who were doing their utmost to make his marriage proposal memorable for himself and his future wife, these men who expressed with their extravagant designs the hugeness of what he felt for her but could not have found a symbol for by himself.



 

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Jake In Drag??
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2007, 11:21:03 pm »
I remember reading an acceptance speech made recently by Heath in his native Australia for still yet another BBM recognition award. He stated "this film doesn't want to go away" and in essence, told the audience the best thing to come out of this film is his family.

If I were to have a chance meeting with either two I don't believe I would bring up the subject of BBM. I imagine they are plumb well full of hearing about it.  In a couple of years Heath will be rolling his eyeballs over everyone doing Joker imitations... this too shall pass.

as Clarissa shared from her meeting with Lynne and Truman, Lynne's very wise observation: " We do alot better if we remember that Heath and Jake are NOT Ennis and Jack" (apologies to Lynne if the wording is off)

I'm going to agree with this POV.  When it comes right down to it, BBM was a job for Heath and Jake.  No more, no less. 

They learned a great deal from doing it and I'm glad for them.

But they are actors, not activists and they are moving on with their careers and personal lives and perhaps it's we fans who don't want to let them, holding them to our own standards and not their own.

I would like to let them and not make them a William Shatner and eventually make them regret taking the roles in the first place.