Author Topic: Question About the Lake Scene  (Read 5447 times)

Offline jakefan

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Question About the Lake Scene
« on: January 15, 2007, 07:10:51 pm »
I just watched finished watching the movie (again) and I noticed something that I did not notice before.  At the Lake Scene, Jack says to Ennis that he'll head on up to Lightning Flat to visit the folks for a day or two.  Right after he says this, he pauses and looks at Ennis for a second like he's waiting for a response from him.  We find out at the end of the movie that Jack talked about Ennis to his parents, so I was thinking that Jack was hoping Ennis would want to come with him.   

Offline Lumière

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2007, 07:26:55 pm »
Maybe he was hoping Ennis'd come, sure .. although he might've known that Ennis was not going to do so.
I think he was also very broken up about leaving Ennis again (and at that point, he thought they were going to meet up again in August) .. Hard to imagine all the sad goodbyes year after year ..  :-\


Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2007, 07:37:21 pm »
I think Jack knew that Ennis could not go, he only had so much time he could take off work. Perhaps he was leading on for another time.

Speaking of that scene, can you see how when Ennis falls to the ground it was made from two takes?
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline jakefan

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2007, 06:08:09 pm »
No, I didn't see that.  Really?  I can't believe I haven't noticed this.  How can you tell?  Please explain!   

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2007, 06:28:59 pm »
No, I didn't see that.  Really?  I can't believe I haven't noticed this.  How can you tell?  Please explain!   

If you look Heath left elbow is bent against Jakes left shoulder, then dissapears invisable  against Jakes chest, then reappears as he hits the ground with his hand nearly agains his own face. Similar to the lack of contuintiy Just before the punch at the scen at Brokeback.

Mark

--Modified to fix embedded quote problem--Lynne
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 06:46:49 pm by Lynne »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline jakefan

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2007, 06:42:56 pm »
I can't wait to see this the next time I watch the movie.  I wonder if any of the other scenes are done this way?

Offline Casey Cornelius

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2007, 02:59:56 am »
jakefan:

I'm offering the following thought about the subtle moment you mention in your original post - from my
past days on the IMDb board.

A wonderful moment I'd missed before is in the final Lake Scene morning conversation between Ennis and Jack. It's obvious they are uneasy about having to leave each other's company again, but something in Jack's attitude to Ennis makes me realize that Jack is totally aware that Ennis has been keeping something from him all week - the info that he won't be able to join him in August. It's so subtle, but Jack waits patiently for Ennis to say something after having loaded the equipment in his truck and makes some phatic small talk, trying to give Ennis some space and coax the courage out of Ennis to declare what Jack sees is difficult for him to say.

In so much of this film I am rarely aware that the characters are 'acting' and this is one of the supreme moments. So little is said or displayed, but so much is conveyed.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 09:47:11 pm by Casey Cornelius »
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand ...

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2007, 05:51:02 am »
My take on Jack's mood is that he's still hurt from the night before when he told Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much he can hardly stand it and Ennis didn't respond.  And that he's mad about the goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation it is to always have to leave each other, and how that situation is Ennis's fault.


Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2007, 11:07:59 pm »
My take on what I refer to as "the joint passing scene", Jack has told Ennis this story about the ranch forman's wife and all, then he says "The truth is..." and after a pregnant pause where he probably thinks better of telling the intended truth, he tells Ennis he misses his so much he can hardly stand it. Then the next day in the parking lot, he does seem to expect something to happen, some relevation, in the story "this said and unsaid".
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline Cameron

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2007, 11:32:33 pm »
I totally agree,

I also did think the 'the truth is...' was the ranch foreman, not his wife.  Why would Jack have paused so long to say I miss you so much.  I think he was upset with E. telling him about Cassie, but again I think Jack didn't really notice what Ennis was saying to him.  I don't think he heard Ennis's little mumble and "I don't know" after saying '  I have been putting the blocks on ...."  To me it meant the Ennis was really telling him that neither Cassie nor anyone else but Jack could ever mean anything, but Jack didn't get this and he was going to tell Ennis about Randall but then decided he better not.

Would have been some scene if he did....



Offline fernly

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2007, 11:46:40 pm »
I wonder about the timing. Guess I'm influenced by the story that has the "miss you so much" conversation happening on the third day of their trip, and the trailhead conversation "a day or two later". Seems like I remember another thread that questioned that vagueness of time, when so much other time in the story is specific.
If there was at least one more day between those two conversations, would that make any difference in interpreting Jack's attitude while he's waiting for Ennis to tell him what's on his mind?

I agree, Casey, that Jack wasn't surprised that Ennis was keeping something from him, and probably wasn't surprised by what it was, but having his suspicions confirmed was no less painful for being expected. I wonder how many other times in recent years Ennis had done this same thing.



on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2007, 02:29:29 am »
I think he was upset with E. telling him about Cassie, but again I think Jack didn't really notice what Ennis was saying to him.  I don't think he heard Ennis's little mumble and "I don't know" after saying '  I have been putting the blocks on ...." 

Good point. Ennis' description of Cassie sounds so desultory and unenthusiastic that it's obvious to US that he's saying he isn't very excited about the relationship. But Jack is probably so frustrated that Ennis is still bothering to have relationships with women at all that he doesn't notice this nuance. It's interesting that just after this Ennis sees it's time to give up the charade, too.

Offline Kazza

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2007, 12:55:20 pm »
My take on what I refer to as "the joint passing scene", Jack has told Ennis this story about the ranch forman's wife and all, then he says "The truth is..." and after a pregnant pause where he probably thinks better of telling the intended truth, he tells Ennis he misses his so much he can hardly stand it. Then the next day in the parking lot, he does seem to expect something to happen, some relevation, in the story "this said and unsaid".

Wow, I love the way that we all see something different in even the smallest nuanes of this film.

In this scene my feeling is that Jack has no intention of telling Ennis about Randall (or whoever else he might have been seeing). I think that when Jack begins "The truth is..." he intends to finish the sentence with a more heartfelt expression of his feelings, or a resurection of his belief that they can have a life together. However, knowing Ennis (and his skittishness) Jack tones it down to "... I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" (which is still a pretty strong declartion).

Just my ha-penny's worth.

Karen

Offline southendmd

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2007, 01:49:17 pm »
This discussion reminds me of CaseyCornelius' "Ennis' Maledictions" thread on IMDb.  I wonder if that one got saved over here.

Anyway, I always thought it interesting that Jack and Ennis can easily talk about women:  in fact, it's Jack who starts it when he says "all this time you ain't found noone else to marry"--->Ennis mentions Cassie --->Jack lies about the ranch foreman's wife. 

To me, that's their "pact":  "We ain't queer." 

When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable.  Ennis sort of cowers in response. 

I always wondered if Ennis felt too threatened by this, and "made up" the story about August. 

Jack certainly looked dejected that next morning.  Is he expecting yet another rejection from Ennis? 

Then, the whole Mexico thing, confirming Jack is queer.  Which means Ennis is queer.  Their pact is broken.  Ennis makes his threat, then the pathetic "it's cuz of you I'm like this". 

Ending with the "can't stand this anymore, Jack".  Coming from the man who originally said "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it".

Can't fix it.  Can't stand it. 

This scene always gets me. 

Offline mouk

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2007, 02:00:35 pm »
Shakes Friend, hi  :)

Yet a slightly different take. I think Jack was tempted to tell the truth when he hesitated for a split second after "I kinda gotta thing goin with a" and  "ranch foreman's wife" but then decided against it.

However, he wants Ennis to know that this affair is of no importance to him. 'The truth is' conveys that: ok I am lying to you about this affair, but the truth is that it does not count, that you are the only one. And his long silence after 'the truth is', in my opinion, could be because  he knows that Ennis freaks when Jack tries to speak about feelings, and/or also because it is difficult for him to express feeling that are so strong, deep and painful that they  put a huge knot in his throat

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2007, 02:10:48 pm »
The fact that they can sit there and discuss sexual escapades with women and not (apparently) show jealousy, yet when E finds out about Mexico, he flips out...that speaks volumes.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2007, 02:17:37 pm »
I'm with Fern in that the "Sometime I miss.."was the second or third day iof their trip not the last. I think Jack knew Ennis well enough that he really didn't expect and answer from Ennis and was not hurt by his lack of response. The long faces on the final day were because of thier parting. As the screen play reads "Mood between then is tense, as always when their time together is about to end."

I think Jack meant wife. He would not have been the one to start anything but women found him an attractive man, nothing much between him and Lureen anymore...  No I don't think it was Leshaun.

Below As I wrote then in 'Photo captions'



Damn that Twist...was just about ta tell him couldn't make August...an he goes tellin' how bad he misses me. Guess Ah 's just have ta wait till later...hate ta tell 'm at all. Don't he knows how much Ah miss him? ...Nothin' Ah'd like better than ta be with 'm all the time like we's up here...but...just can't be so...



Some folks thought I was disappointed at Ennis fer not sayin' nothin' after I told how much I miss him. Didn't expect him ta say anything, just wanted ta let 'm know is all. No one ever saw what went on next. Could tell Ennis had somethin' on his mind though, just staring straight ahead, found out later it was that he couldn't make August, couldn't tell me just then, knew that'd  make me upset. He was right 'bout that. Never had no doubts how Ennis felt 'bout me, know how hard it was fer him ta untangle himself and walk inta the tent that night so long ago back at Brokeback, went against everthin' he knew. Still not easy fer him, I know what it means that he sees me whenever he can..

Mark
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2007, 03:10:00 pm »

In this scene my feeling is that Jack has no intention of telling Ennis about Randall (or whoever else he might have been seeing). I think that when Jack begins "The truth is..." he intends to finish the sentence with a more heartfelt expression of his feelings, or a resurection of his belief that they can have a life together. However, knowing Ennis (and his skittishness) Jack tones it down to "... I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" (which is still a pretty strong declartion).

Just my ha-penny's worth.

Karen

Karen, I'm with you hunderd per cent on this.


Offline Cameron

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2007, 05:42:23 pm »
":  "We ain't queer." 

When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable.  Ennis sort of cowers in response. 

I always wondered if Ennis felt too threatened by this, and "made up" the story about August. 

I so totally agree, in fact thats the basis for all my theories, I think that Ennis was making excuses, why I don't really know, all of the things that were mentioned.  And maybe Ennis was finally starting to realize to that he couldn't live without Jack and that scared him too, so I am convinced no the working in august was an excuse.  I think that at this point he truly felt he was 'nowwhere and nothing' so he was terrified that Jack would leave him despite  Jack saying said 'sometimes I miss you so much'

Or maybe he was terrified because Jack felt like that and he realized he did too...

However, I am convinced  it all  was just an excuse because he did the same thing with A. Junior twice, and both times he was obviously fishing for excuses, at least to me.

Believe me, it takes one to know one,  I can see Ennis viewpoint and I am almost sure that he was making an excuse
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 05:54:13 pm by marlb42 »



Offline Ladyeve

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2007, 07:46:11 pm »
Hello,

That was what Jack always wanted, for Ennis to say  "Can I go with you?, but he never did.  But remember,  the next best thing was there in L.F.,   the shirts.


Ladyeve

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2007, 01:11:13 am »
The fact that they can sit there and discuss sexual escapades with women and not (apparently) show jealousy, yet when E finds out about Mexico, he flips out...that speaks volumes.

Yes, it does. They can screw all the women they want, and that doesn't violate their "one-shot deal"--the only guys they have sex with are each other.

But Jack going off to Mexico for the purpose of getting mansex. ... Unh-unh.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2007, 11:56:04 am »
Wow, I love the way that we all see something different in even the smallest nuanes of this film.

In this scene my feeling is that Jack has no intention of telling Ennis about Randall (or whoever else he might have been seeing). I think that when Jack begins "The truth is..." he intends to finish the sentence with a more heartfelt expression of his feelings, or a resurection of his belief that they can have a life together. However, knowing Ennis (and his skittishness) Jack tones it down to "... I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" (which is still a pretty strong declartion).

Just my ha-penny's worth.

Karen

that is the way I saw it...that Jack got choked on what he wanted to say and all that would come out was "I miss you so bad...."

injest

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2007, 11:59:09 am »
Hello,

That was what Jack always wanted, for Ennis to say  "Can I go with you?, but he never did.  But remember,  the next best thing was there in L.F.,   the shirts.


Ladyeve

Hi Ladyeve!!!

welcome to Bettermost...

 :)

injest

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2007, 12:01:39 pm »
The fact that they can sit there and discuss sexual escapades with women and not (apparently) show jealousy, yet when E finds out about Mexico, he flips out...that speaks volumes.

exactly..


because they both knew those other things were not important and didn't threaten their relationship...

I think Ennis was probably getting more stiff and nervous as the week went on..knowing he was cancelling August...but didn't want Jack to be mad at him; didn't want to argue so he tried to keep it hid til the last moment...and I think Jack picked up on that...

Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2007, 01:19:30 am »
One thing that stands out to me when I watch the FLS, is that it seems Ennis is 'challenging' Jack with regards to August - he says something to the effect that he 'has to work' and 'can't get the time off' then, 'I can't quit this one' and he kind of shrugs. That moment always strikes me as challenging or defiant on Ennis' part, as if to say, 'ok Jack, I am presenting you with an impossible situation - how are you going to fix this one?' Anyone else experience this perspective at that particular moment or have further insights?
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2007, 10:46:39 am »
One thing that stands out to me when I watch the FLS, is that it seems Ennis is 'challenging' Jack with regards to August - he says something to the effect that he 'has to work' and 'can't get the time off' then, 'I can't quit this one' and he kind of shrugs. That moment always strikes me as challenging or defiant on Ennis' part, as if to say, 'ok Jack, I am presenting you with an impossible situation - how are you going to fix this one?' Anyone else experience this perspective at that particular moment or have further insights?

Yes, I think you're right. I never thought about it consciously before, but now that you mention it that's how it strikes me, too.

Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2007, 03:12:11 pm »
Thanks, ineedcrayons (great moniker by the way!) - it's an interesting moment...are we sensing Ennis' frustration with the entire situation with Jack or is it something more?
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2007, 10:52:38 am »
It is certainly a pivotal moment. Literally. Isn't that the place where the camera pivots to show Ennis behind Jack one one side, out of focus, and then on the other side, sharp? Jack obviously makes a decision there, but it's debatable what it is.

Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Question About the Lake Scene
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2007, 06:05:05 pm »
Maybe he was hoping Ennis'd come, sure .. although he might've known that Ennis was not going to do so.
I think he was also very broken up about leaving Ennis again (and at that point, he thought they were going to meet up again in August) .. Hard to imagine all the sad goodbyes year after year ..  :-\

No so hard if you have been there and done that!
Still hurts a lot though. :'(
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