You know you're a Brokaholic when...

[serious crayons]

(I think it's healthier emotionally for me to go out on a Saturday night and hang out with my buddies than to sit at home--alone--watching late night television)

Good point. Well, there were some gay cowboys in the audience for Jake's appearance -- it was the only Brokeback reference -- and they were pretty cliched, so there was a debate going on here over whether they were harmless humor or unfunny reinforcement of stereotypes.

That excerpt from Laura Kipnis is interesting. I like that phrase, "the humor of painful recognition." However, I barely know who Sarah Silverman is--I think I read something about her somewhere, so I assume she's a raunchy female comic--but I don't get Kipnis's take that Silverman's joke about being raped by her doctor is a poignant experience for a Jewish girl "demolishes" rather than "upholds" cliches. I would think the joke is funny precisely because of the stereotype or cliche that "all Jewish mothers want their daughters to marry doctors."

I know, I agree, it's ambiguous, and I think that example is probably the weakest part of that excerpt. But I guess what she's saying is that Sarah Silverman makes the stereotype SO absurd as to demolish it -- a lot of Sarah Silverman's humor is like that; she plays on stereotypes and prejudices to an extreme that makes them completely ludicrous rather than just a reinforcement of what we already believe (and she's hilarious, BTW). The comic I most associate with the other kind of joke -- the stereotype-reinforcing kind -- is Jay Leno (perhaps unfairly, because there are lots of comedians who do this, and I could even be wrong because I very rarely watch Leno). That is, men are beer-guzzling domestically challenged slobs who won't ask directions and hog the remote, women are long-suffering, neat-freak housefraus who fret that every item of clothing makes their butt look fat, "Brokeback Mountain" is ... well, you can imagine. The stereotypes are boring and cliched and, as Kipnis says, they uphold the status quo. Like, as you laugh you're supposed to be shrugging, "Yeah, men are lazy bums, but whattya gonna do?" I get email spam with those kinds of jokes, and I often delete them before I even finish reading them.

Whew! OK, there's my soapbox speech du jour.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Good point.

Well, it might be healthy emotionally for me to be out with people rather than sitting at home alone, but I might have added that it might not be healthy for my liver. 

Well, there were some gay cowboys in the audience for Jake's appearance -- it was the only Brokeback reference -- and they were pretty cliched, so there was a debate going on here over whether they were harmless humor or unfunny reinforcement of stereotypes.

So it sounds like they weren't real gay cowboys, just guys dressed like cowboys and acting queeny? 

I know, I agree, it's ambiguous, and I think that example is probably the weakest part of that excerpt. But I guess what she's saying is that Sarah Silverman makes the stereotype SO absurd as to demolish it.

OK, I can see that might be what Kipnis means. I'm still not sure I agree with it, but I see that could be what she means.

Thanks, Katherine!

[serious crayons]

So it sounds like they weren't real gay cowboys, just guys dressed like cowboys and acting queeny? 

Yes. Sorry if that wasn't clear; they were characters planted in the audience. And one point made in the debate here was that not only did the joke reinforce stereotypes, but that it relied on them even to let viewers know what the joke was. If they just looked like regular guys, the SNL thinking seemed to be, then how would anybody know they were gay?[/quote]

Thanks, Katherine!

Sure enough, and thank YOU, Jeff! See you Monday. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Yes. Sorry if that wasn't clear; they were characters planted in the audience. And one point made in the debate here was that not only did the joke reinforce stereotypes, but that it relied on them even to let viewers know what the joke was. If they just looked like regular guys, the SNL thinking seemed to be, then how would anybody know they were gay?

I was pretty sure that's what you meant, just thought it safer to be explicit. 

I guess I'm finding myself wondering whether any humor based on a stereotype ever really destroys that stereotype, or just ends up reinforcing it?    Or maybe it only works when a character who clearly believes in the stereotype is made to look like a fool, like Archie Bunker?

[ednbarby]

I guess I'm finding myself wondering whether any humor based on a stereotype ever really destroys that stereotype, or just ends up reinforcing it?    Or maybe it only works when a character who clearly believes in the stereotype is made to look like a fool, like Archie Bunker?

BINGO.  That character and the time they parodied that homophobic cowboy on The Daily Show last year are the only two instances I can think of off the top of my head that served to try to destroy (or at least debilitate) the sterotypes.  Boy, did they make the latter look like a fool, too.  I'm sorry I didn't TiVo that and save it for posterity.  It was some truly funny business.  And better than anything anyone currently at SNL could write in their wildest dreams.

[Scott6373]

Might a make a suggestion that the direction this thread has gone seems to be quite far away from it's intent. 

This is a great discussion about subliminal and insidious discrimination.  Perhaps "Safe Haven" would be a good place for it.

[ednbarby]

Well, allow me to help push this hijacked train back on track.

You know you're a Brokaholic when... you still replay at least one scene in your mind just about every morning when you first wake up.  (When I'm feeling particularly randy, it's both tent scenes *and* the reunion.  But sometimes it's the "Hell, that's the most I spoke in a year" or Motel Siesta scene.)

[serious crayons]

the time they parodied that homophobic cowboy on The Daily Show last year ...  Boy, did they make the latter look like a fool, too.  I'm sorry I didn't TiVo that and save it for posterity.  It was some truly funny business.  And better than anything anyone currently at SNL could write in their wildest dreams.

I think I saw that one, Barb! Was it an older guy, maybe 70ish, who objected to a gay rodeo? And the Daily Show reporter was playing along, and ridiculing the gay rodeoer for only being able to stay on the bull for 8 seconds, and then (long pause) the old guy had to grudgingly admit that was pretty good?

Which brings us back to the larger question: Why is it the Daily Show can be funny for an entire half hour, four days a week, while SNL can't manage to be funny for even ONE half hour, ONCE a week?

I guess I'm finding myself wondering whether any humor based on a stereotype ever really destroys that stereotype, or just ends up reinforcing it?    Or maybe it only works when a character who clearly believes in the stereotype is made to look like a fool, like Archie Bunker?

Well, Sarah Silverman's comic persona is sort of an edgier, 21st-century version of Archie Bunker. As is the character of Michael on The Office. (And I suppose Borat? I haven't seen that movie.) Maybe they don't demolish stereotypes, but they sure make them look foolish.

But the OTHER kind, the stereotype reinforcing kind, does something else I was thinking about this morning. (While riding my stationary bike! You're not the only one who comes up with good ideas while away from the computer, Jeff!  ) I watch both "My Name is Earl" and "The Office" with my sons, who are 10 and 12. When the stereotype-reinforcing gay characters on Earl come on, one thing that makes me uncomfortable is the worry that my sons will get the idea that that's what being gay is. Whereas in episodes of The Office dealing with gayness and homophobia, the gay coworker Oscar is normal and sensible, whereas Michael, with his font of ridiculous prejudices and stereotypes, is the one who looks silly and wrong. The stereotypER is the object of humor rather than the stereotypEE.

You can imagine which message I'd rather see my sponge-like sons absorbing, which character I'd rather see them laughing at. Neither show changed MY views, and perhaps neither would change the views of a committed bigot. But for a 10-year-old, still figuring out how this stuff goes, it could make a difference.

UPDATE: Oops, sorry Scott, your post came in while I was writing this, so I'll just post it and shut up.

Let's see, um ... you know you're a Brokeaholic when you can spend days debating back and forth about the political effects of gay characters on sitcoms? Well, no, I guess one doesn't NECESSARILY lead to the other ... 

[Scott6373]

UPDATE: Oops, sorry Scott, your post came in while I was writing this, so I'll just post it and shut up.

Let's see, um ... you know you're a Brokeaholic when you can spend days debating back and forth about the political effects of gay characters on sitcoms? Well, no, I guess one doesn't NECESSARILY lead to the other ... 

LOL...you're a funny one 

[Front-Ranger]

You know you're a Brokaholic when you're looking forward to going to Bay City, Michigan, in February!!