Author Topic: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?  (Read 87308 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #120 on: March 02, 2007, 11:54:22 am »
Just remind yourself that article was published over 40 years ago. But that was also shortly after a couple of fictional ranch kids came together on top of a mountain in Wyoming. Goes far to illustrate the attitudes that were pervasive back in those days.

I was going to mention earlier -- though it seemed a tiny bit frivolous to worry about fictional people (even those two!) in this context -- that anyone who says "Why didn't Ennis just get over it?" should be forced to read this.

You're right, Roland. This makes me even madder than yesterday's installment. And once again, I would love to pick out especially egregious examples, but I don't know where to start, there are so many idiotic assumptions in here.

Oh, OK, I have to mention two that happen to be personal pet peeves. One is the fact that scientists, who we are taught to think of as unbiased and objective authorities, whose methods are supposed to be so careful and reliable, are often as stupid and incompetent as anyone else. A study finds that two groups of men, one gay and one straight, are equally mentally healthy -- so rather than consider the possibility that that might actually be the case, many scientists just assume the tests are faulty?

And the other is about the mothers. As a mother, I have long taken issue with the idea that if there's something "wrong" with a kid -- in this case, of course, it isn't even something wrong, but you know what I mean -- it's because the mother screwed up somehow. In the 50s and 60s, autism was attributed to "refrigerator mothers" who didn't love their kids enough. That theory obviously has since been seen as hogwash, but it was widely accepted and caused untold suffering for both kids and mothers. Meanwhile, scientists assumed that boys "became homosexual" because their mothers  loved them too much. How can you love your kids too much? Where exactly were you supposed to draw the line? No matter what mothers do, it's wrong. Parenting "experts'" have changed a little today, but only in degree, not in the underlying assumptions.

One reason the refrigerator mother appeared to have validity was because mothers really did have a hard time being as affectionate with autistic kids who had problems responding to them emotionally. So the researchers really were seeing a correlation, but their bias caused them to interpret the cause and effect backwards (which constantly still happens today, BTW). And it occurs to me that gay men's mothers might actually have appeared more loving, the father more distant, because when it became apparent the son was "different," the father became "uninterested," "actively hostile," "given to disparagement and ridicule." (That pattern would certainly fit Jack's family, and apparently Ennis', too!) Once again, what might actually have been an empirical fact was just interpreted backwards because of the researchers' bias.

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh. The frowning smiley doesn't look mad enough to express my reaction.

Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2007, 11:09:33 am »
One thing, the LIFE article couldn't spell Wolfenden. (UK report arising from the arrest and imprisonment of Peter Wildeblood, Lord Montague of Beaulieu and one other in 1957. Wildeblood wrote a book called "Against the Law" in 1959, which led to the Report. It took them another 10 years to make consent, adult [21] and in private [no more than two people] a defence, though the charge might still be brought. Full decrimininalistion wasn't till the 90s, I think, and repealing the infamous Section 28 against "promoting" homosexuality not until about 2003) 

I checked the spelling against the report itself, and then I thought you'd like to see some of it.

From the last page, obviously they had a big drive on in 1954, the year they got Alan Turing.
Shuggy a question if you don't mind. What is buggery? Is that a British phrase for what us Yanks might call solicitation?


Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2007, 11:19:19 am »
Shuggy a question if you don't mind. What is buggery? Is that a British phrase for what us Yanks might call solicitation?



No Tommy, buggery is the word used in North America as well, It means taking 'it' (or should I say, giving 'it') up the ass. A very common practice for gays (Ennis did it to Alma as well - that's why we see him flippin her over in the "not so lonely anymore, is it" scene) but certainly not exclusively a gay habit - straights do it too.
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Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2007, 01:04:34 pm »
No Tommy, buggery is the word used in North America as well, It means taking 'it' (or should I say, giving 'it') up the ass. A very common practice for gays (Ennis did it to Alma as well - that's why we see him flippin her over in the "not so lonely anymore, is it" scene) but certainly not exclusively a gay habit - straights do it too.
Thanks Sherrif, because I was looking at the British study he posted and that was one of 3 categories. What really struck me odd was that they kept these records or prosecuted people in the 1940-44 time period when they were being bombed relentlessly by Nazi Germany.

Offline Kd5000

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2007, 01:15:16 pm »
"Oh bugger!"  So what does that mean. Or I've heard the wordchoice "Bugger" used in Brittish films when the character is really annoyed. Even the queen said it in THE QUEEN.  Of course, nobody was around to hear her say it.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2007, 01:22:44 pm »
"Oh bugger!"  So what does that mean. Or I've heard the wordchoice "Bugger" used in Brittish films when the character is really annoyed. Even the queen said it in THE QUEEN.  Of course, nobody was around to hear her say it.

Probably a (slightly more acceptable) version of "Oh Fuck" Though it is NOT somethin that the queen a england would say. It may be percieved as dif'rent, bu that don't change it's origin!

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2007, 03:22:48 pm »
I think "oh, bugger!" is one of those curses in which the literal meaning of the word has kind of fallen by the wayside. At least when the queen says it!  :laugh:

Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2007, 05:03:09 pm »
Buggery refers to anal sex (so it has a somewhat narrower meaning than "sodomy" in the US). Offhand, I think only the penetrative partner is "guilty" of it. The penetrated is regarded as his "victim". But I'm not sure. The fact that in many of those years odd numbers were "offenders" implied they didn't always blame both parties.

Buggery was a very serious crime indeed, with a possible sentence of death until 1861. The last execution for it was in 1836. Although Lord Queensbury accused Oscar Wilde of being a "somdomite" and there was evidence at the trials of anal sex, he was charged with the lesser, more easily proved, crime of "gross indecency with a male" with a maximum sentence of two years at hard labour - enough to destroy Wilde's health and shorten his life.

Tommydreamer wrote:
Quote
they kept these records or prosecuted people in the 1940-44 time period when they were being bombed relentlessly by Nazi Germany.
But you notice there is a dip in the figure for 1940. They probably had other things to do. Quentin Crisp and many others report that the blackouts were wonderful times for cruising. Not only the darkness, but people felt life was short and they should enjoy what they could. Even better after 1941, when thousands of healthy young American males were "over paid, over-sexed and over here".

The word is a very interesting one. From the French "bougre" and in turn from "Bulgari" it's cognate with Bulgaria and Balkan. It originally referred to kinds of heresy believed by those people (Bogomils), and as everyone knows, heretics are capable of anything, especially anal sex.

I doubt very much that the Queen would use it even in private, because she could never know for sure when nobody could hear her, and The Queen (Defender of the Faith) does not say "bugger". She would use the common euphemism "bother". If they have her saying that in the film, I think they went too far. (It reminds me of the scandal when Eliza Doolittle in Shaw's Pygmalian (1910) said "bloody". By the time it was turned into My Fair Lady (1958) people wouldn't have understood what the fuss was about, so it was up?graded to "bloody arse".)

"Bugger" has become very popular in New Zealand, after a series of Toyota TV advertisements in which that was the only dialogue. A series of mishaps involve a Toyota ute, underlining how unexpectedly powerful it is:

A Toyota is used to pull out a fence post. It goes flying through the air. Someone says "Bugger!"
It lands on a dunny (longdrop, outhouse), knocking it over. Someone inside says "Bugger!"
Mud from the wheels lands on some washing hanging on a rotary clothes line. The housewife says "Bugger!"
A dog runs to leap on to the back of the Toyota, but it's too fast and the dog lands in the mud. The dog says "Rurrah!"

So nobody thinks it's rude any more.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 04:02:23 am by Shuggy »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2007, 07:19:23 pm »
I think "oh, bugger!" is one of those curses in which the literal meaning of the word has kind of fallen by the wayside. At least when the queen says it!  :laugh:


Depends on which or what kind of "queen."  ;D

And, of course, "Bugger off!" would be "Fuck off!"

As for the use of bloody in My Fair Lady, it's been awhile, but I think for the movie version they toned down that bloody to bloomin'.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2007, 07:39:00 pm »

And, of course, "Bugger off!" would be "Fuck off!"
The Royals are famous even for using euphemisms. Princess Anne famously told some photographers to "Naff off!" The word "naff" is Polari, the opposite of "bona" and in popular usage just means unfashionable, but is allegedly from the acronym for Not Available For Fucking.

Quote
As for the use of bloody in My Fair Lady, it's been awhile, but I think for the movie version they toned down that bloody to bloomin'.
The Penguin script of the show says "bloomin' arse" but I was told that she said "bloody" on stage. In the song "Without you" she definitely winds up "So go back in your shell, I can do bloody well without you". Julie Andrews sings it on the record. "Bloomin' well" wouldn't cut across the footlights nearly so well.