Author Topic: A Ninth Viewing Observation  (Read 129766 times)

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #180 on: August 10, 2006, 12:23:32 am »

(And jpwagoneer -- is that 1977 truck the one that people keep mentioning as being an error? I am really, really bad at dating vehicles.)
Actually 1973-1977 are almost the same, but the grilles are different. Interestingly Jacks red truck was a 1965-6 Ford and the later one Ennis had was a 1966 Ford, almost indentical except again the grille.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #181 on: August 10, 2006, 02:45:33 am »
Quote
From Doug
Mikaela...Aggies is the nickname of Texas A & M (agriculture and mining), and from "agriculture" they came up with "Aggie" (much like "Brokies").  When you hear someone say "Aggie game", they are usually referring to football....

Thank you for clarifying this and apologies for forgetting to say so earlier! I figured the game the Malones met at had to be football, since it would jive so nicely with LD's comments about "men" (as clearly implying "real men") watching football, and Randall seems to work more actively than Jack at outwardly appearing as LD's kind of "real man."  ::)
(The  ::) is for the "real man" concept, not for Randall....)


Quote
From Jane
Jack went up to LF immediately following his last trip with Ennis.  In fact he told Ennis at the truck that he was gonna head up to LF for a day or two.

I have always assumed that when Jack's father told Ennis " then this spring he says he's gonna bring another fella up here to whup this ranch into shape, blah blah blah"  -  well I have always thought that Jack said this on that self-same visit to LF, the day after leaving Ennis for the last time.

I've always thought so too. Nothing else makes sense to me, neither psychologically nor timeline-wise in relation to the actual scenes we get to see, and what is said there.. Jack didn't see his folks all that often - he surely didn't go see them between that time directly after his and Ennis' cold last meeting in spring and his death the same year. (Screwed-up movie timelines be damned ). And he was seriously contemplating quitting, or had just decided to quit, for Ennis's sake as well as his own - so speaking the quitting out loud in bitterness and despair to convince himself he's really, really, actually, truly quitting makes sense too.

Quote
From Diane
And I'm feeling now that the comment about the ranch neighbor is really Jack's bitterness and unhappiness talking. I'm doubting now that he would have really gone back to Texas and "proposed" to Randall the way he "proposed" to Ennis in '67.

I agree with that. I just can't see Randall going up there - I can't see Jack seeing Randall going up there, except in some kind of tentative daydreaming to let himself "sense the difference" if he should let Randall replace Ennis in his life (if not as his true love).

Quote
From Diane
As far as it goes, I think someone has already mentioned, we don't ever actually see Jack suggesting to Ennis in so many words that they ranch up together on the Twist spread in Lightning Flat. [  ]For all we really see in either story or film, Jack was ruminating about bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat to his father and mother for years but never said a word to Ennis.

I think this is spot-on. I think Jack was biding his time, waiting for a moment when Ennis would be open for his moving to LF suggestion - waiting for the time when he'd managed to calm Ennis's skittish side sufficiently. But Ennis developed more paranoia, not less.... as he demonstrates in the "moving to Texas" harangue......and the years passed them by.

"I did - once"  doesn't sound as if Jack thinks he broached the suggestion recently. I think his wish for a life lived together lay unspokenly between them over all the years of the fishing trips, so close to the surface it was discernible, tangible - but not said out loud again, never discussed, - still with both of them very keenly aware of it.

Ennis would have had no idea that Jack was talking so at length with his parents about Ennis moving up to LF, I'm sure of that. He'd not at all have thought Jack had any reason to believe any such thing.... Hope and dream, yes. Believe or consider confirmed, no.

Poor Jack. :'( Hoping and dreaming. And poor Ennis.  :'(
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 02:53:26 am by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #182 on: August 10, 2006, 10:57:20 am »
So if Jack's plan to move with Randall to LF was empty talk triggered by his frustration with Ennis, and if he probably wouldn't have really wanted to live with Randall, and if Randall probably wouldn't want to do it anyway ... then I would say Jack wouldn't have quit Ennis.

Meanwhile, Ennis was shaken by the argument with Jack, he told Jack he couldn't stand it no more (suggesting that he has to fix it), he went home and broke up with Cassie, his encounter with her in the bus station made him think about his relationship in a new way, he looked perky when getting the mail because he was looking forward to a change ... then I would say he planned to move their relationship up to a new level.

So voila! Happy ending.

Oh, except for one thing ...  :'( :'( :'(

Offline dly64

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #183 on: August 10, 2006, 11:35:46 am »
dly64 and nakymaton...good job researching the SMU and their football schedule this fall.  I'm guessing nakymaton is a football fan, but dly64 not so much?  I was unable to get back to this subject soon, but I did manage to watch the scene again and heard her say it. 

Actually, Doug, I am a huge football fan … but not college. I like pro. Go COLTS!!!!

So if Jack's plan to move with Randall to LF was empty talk triggered by his frustration with Ennis, and if he probably wouldn't have really wanted to live with Randall, and if Randall probably wouldn't want to do it anyway ... then I would say Jack wouldn't have quit Ennis.

Meanwhile, Ennis was shaken by the argument with Jack, he told Jack he couldn't stand it no more (suggesting that he has to fix it), he went home and broke up with Cassie, his encounter with her in the bus station made him think about his relationship in a new way, he looked perky when getting the mail because he was looking forward to a change ... then I would say he planned to move their relationship up to a new level.

So voila! Happy ending.

Oh, except for one thing ...  :'( :'( :'(

Am I sensing a bit of sarcasm?   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #184 on: August 10, 2006, 12:26:28 pm »
Am I sensing a bit of sarcasm?   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Well, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but mixed with a LOT of sincere hopefulness. I genuinely do cling to the belief that Jack didn't quit Ennis and Ennis was planning to change, because I like to interpret the movie in the least sad way possible. Unfortunately, that only goes so far.  :-\

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #185 on: August 10, 2006, 12:34:10 pm »
Well, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but mixed with a LOT of sincere hopefulness. I genuinely do cling to the belief that Jack didn't quit Ennis and Ennis was planning to change, because I like to interpret the movie in the least sad way possible. Unfortunately, that only goes so far.  :-\
Me too. After both of the grils wer grown Ennis would have at least made more time for Jack, his lasts years of child support and all made it less.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline welliwont

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #186 on: August 10, 2006, 01:35:31 pm »
So if Jack's plan to move with Randall to LF was empty talk triggered by his frustration with Ennis, and if he probably wouldn't have really wanted to live with Randall, and if Randall probably wouldn't want to do it anyway ... then I would say Jack wouldn't have quit Ennis.

I really can’t figure out of you are being serious or joking here, but the question of whether or not Jack would quit Ennis, (I think of it as try to quit Ennis) does not hinge on whether or not he could lure Randall to LF.  I don’t think Jack necessarily even wants to live at LF, but it will be his inheritance eventually, I expect.  And he would go there if it was something that would suit Ennis.  I do believe Jack was going to try and quit Ennis, but he was doing this, the hardest thing he ever would have to do, for Ennis’ and his own emotional wellbeing, not because he could snag another guy.

Quote
Meanwhile, Ennis was shaken by the argument with Jack, he told Jack he couldn't stand it no more (suggesting that he has to fix it), he went home and broke up with Cassie, his encounter with her in the bus station made him think about his relationship in a new way, he looked perky when getting the mail because he was looking forward to a change ... then I would say he planned to move their relationship up to a new level.

So voila! Happy ending.

Oh, except for one thing ...  :'( :'( :'(

Nor do I think that Ennis had a change of intention since the argument. The words “I just can’t stand it no more” just burst out of him in response to Jack’s outburst, I don’t think Ennis had an epiphany and decided to change the course of his life.  IMO.  The lightbulb that presumably went off in his head when Cassie said the line to him about “girls don’t fall in love with fun” was in the movie but not in the story.  I don’t really see that Ennis ever made a decision to change his conduct.

Are you kidding with these conclusions, or do you really believe them?  I’m at work, gotta go….

Jane
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline welliwont

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #187 on: August 10, 2006, 01:49:03 pm »
Well, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but mixed with a LOT of sincere hopefulness. I genuinely do cling to the belief that Jack didn't quit Ennis and Ennis was planning to change, because I like to interpret the movie in the least sad way possible. Unfortunately, that only goes so far.  :-\

Ok, now I see that you are not joking and you sincerely believe those things.  Well good for you.   :D  If you can see all that, I applaud you.  And no, I am not being sarcastic.  Maybe if I continue to absorb and injest every minutae and morsel of this fine film/story I will have a change of heart.  It is still not 100% set in my heart, every little nuance of this fine film/story; for example, I have not interpreted to my satisfaction Ennis' outpouring:  "Why dontcha then? ...."

I am at work so I can't get into the interpretation of the "Why doncha" rejoinder right now, but BTW, it is worded differently in the 2004 screenplay, it goes longer, and that in itself is enlightening.   Although I do realize that I cannot use the different dialogue to decipher the real dialogue ultimately used in the movie. (it shows at least James Schamus's interpretation?).

Gotta go,

J
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline Mikaela

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #188 on: August 10, 2006, 01:50:56 pm »
You know, I keep changing my mind. Or not changing it, exactly, but letting the various arguments weigh more or less according to the compelling posts I read from others - and the mood I'm in. The more romantic, the less the quitter....

Quote
So if Jack's plan to move with Randall to LF was empty talk triggered by his frustration with Ennis, and if he probably wouldn't have really wanted to live with Randall, and if Randall probably wouldn't want to do it anyway ... then I would say Jack wouldn't have quit Ennis.

I think he would, or could, still have quit Ennis even so. Because his reason for quitting IMO mainly is love and concern for Ennis (and himself); - their relationship is "killing them" - their spirit, their love, their lives if not their excistence. Jack's wish to be with someone else would be entirely secondary to a perceived need to set Ennis free for Ennis's own sake. If so, whether or not he could be certain that Randall was willing to commit to anything more than what they previously had would not be an important deciding factor for Jack. And Jack could in this scenario still go on about the ranch neighbour to his parents immediately after having seen Ennis, to convince himself he could manage the quitting.  :( :-\

Then when he got back to Childress, it seems he'd overtaxed his "quitting" resources and probably was in very much doubt - consequently the drinking and the (probable) carelessness . That face of Jack's in the very last scene we see with him.... I can imagine him returning to Childress completely mentally worn out, heavily depressed, unable to make further changes and decisions. **sniff** Only we don't get to see that, while we *do* get to see Ennis's corresponding state of mind. Was there ever a more dejected and lonely-looking person than that silent man sitting by himself in the empty cafe, looking crushed by life,  barely managing to nibble at his sad little piece of pie? **sniff**

I am close to agreeing that *Ennis* was ready to try to change - that the scene in the cafe shows some sort of epiphany.... Less certain about his ability to change. And we would have known, if not for........  :'(



Concerning whether or not J&E ever discussed a life together after the "cow and calf operation" talk, I've been wondering about what, if anything, was said when they met a month after the disastrous post-divorce scene. Would they both have pretended that nothing happened? Would they have just let be, let be without comment? Would they have talked through what happened, - at all? At least touched upon Jack's hopes and Ennis's fears? Would Ennis pretend that he thought Jack'd come up to be with him for a weekend or so, which was impossible because of the girls? Well, "pretend" is not the right word here, I know, that's doing Ennis an injustice  - it's more that Ennis uses his "the girls" mantra (and the "child support" one as well) when he doesn't really know what else to *say* - however deeply he feels - when he just can't find the words. So let me rephrase: If they talked about that post-divorce disaster at all, did Ennis continue to explain his behaviour with having to take care of the girls?



Edit: Hey, Jane, you posted while I was scribbling away. Seems we're on to some of the same thoughts.  :)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 01:55:53 pm by Mikaela »

Offline dly64

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Re: A Ninth Viewing Observation
« Reply #189 on: August 10, 2006, 01:54:25 pm »
Well, maybe a bit of sarcasm, but mixed with a LOT of sincere hopefulness. I genuinely do cling to the belief that Jack didn't quit Ennis and Ennis was planning to change, because I like to interpret the movie in the least sad way possible. Unfortunately, that only goes so far.  :-\

Honestly, I feel the same way. I never subscribed to the idea that Jack would quit Ennis. As for Ennis, he finally realized the feelings that he had for Jack were “love.” Whether or not Ennis was going to have the “sweet life” with Ennis is doubtful. But, I do think their relationship was going to head in a different direction …. But it was too late! WHY!!!??
 :'(
Diane

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