A Ninth Viewing Observation

[dly64]

I have seen lots of posts inferring that this or that happened between the time of their last fishing trip and the time he told his parents about bringing up some other guy, but I believe that from what we've been shown/told that both trips were one and the same trip for Jack.  In other words he had the long drive up to LF to mull over his life and what to do about it, cried about Ennis I'm sure, and was trying to work himself up to doing something to fix a goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation.

Is there a flaw in this logic, people?  Why do so many Brokies think that there was a time lapse between the two events?

It is certainly possible. Do we know the exact month that Jack and Ennis got together for the last time? Is it in the spring? I think that is what causes the disparity. The question becomes, did Jack mull this over on the way to LF? Or did he go back to TX and cogitate the events that took place at the lake?  IMO, most of us Brokies don’t like the thought that Jack would immediately leave Ennis, go to LF and announce he was going to bring this “ranch neighbor” to help run the ranch. (Not to say it didn’t happen. It’s the timeline that causes the discomfort).

[welliwont]

It is certainly possible. Do we know the exact month that Jack and Ennis got together for the last time? Is it in the spring? I think that is what causes the disparity. The question becomes, did Jack mull this over on the way to LF? Or did he go back to TX and cogitate the events that took place at the lake?  IMO, most of us Brokies don’t like the thought that Jack would immediately leave Ennis, go to LF and announce he was going to bring this “ranch neighbor” to help run the ranch. (Not to say it didn’t happen. It’s the timeline that causes the discomfort).

Ahh the timeline....  that project that I just never got around to yet.  I know that there have been some really great timelines created, I just don't know where they are.  But for me the timeline surrounding that period of time is:

• Spring 1983:  Jack and Ennis have their last fishing trip off at least one week.  Jack:  "It's gonna snow tonight for sure."

• Their last day together:  Jack leaves and drives to LF for a visit of a day or two.

• Sometime between Spring and August:  (my guestimate):  Jack dies.  "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack...."  is what Annie Proulx wrote.

• End of September:  (my guesstimate) Ennis sends his postcard to Jack about meeting up on November 7th.

• Early-mid October: (my guesstimate) the postcard is returned, stamped with that horrible word in red ink.

• _______________:  Ennis' trip to LF to ask for the ashes.  Since John Twist says "this spring" in his little rant, I am thinking that this still 1983.

Is this timeline accurate people?

[dly64]

Ahh the timeline....  that project that I just never got around to yet.  I know that there have been some really great timelines created, I just don't know where they are.  But for me the timeline surrounding that period of time is:

• Spring 1983:  Jack and Ennis have their last fishing trip off at least one week.  Jack:  "It's gonna snow tonight for sure."

• Their last day together:  Jack leaves and drives to LF for a visit of a day or two.

• Sometime between Spring and August:  (my guestimate):  Jack dies.  "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack...."  is what Annie Proulx wrote.

• End of September:  (my guesstimate) Ennis sends his postcard to Jack about meeting up on November 7th.

• Early-mid October: (my guesstimate) the postcard is returned, stamped with that horrible word in red ink.

• _______________:  Ennis' trip to LF to ask for the ashes.  Since John Twist says "this spring" in his little rant, I am thinking that this still 1983.

Is this timeline accurate people?

Jane – you are being logical! You can’t be logical when it comes to this movie’s timelines.     Think about it …. Jack gets together with Lureen around the 4th of July, 1966. He reunites with Ennis in September of 1967 and he has an 8 month old son?? 8 weeks, maybe … but 8 months?

Jack meets Randall and Ennis meets Cassie in 1978. Then Jack and Ennis are talking in 1983 like all of this is a new development. I find it doubtful that Ennis would have stuck with Cassie for almost five years (same with Jack and Randall). It just doesn’t jive.

Alma, Jr. visits Ennis at his trailer to tell him of her impending wedding. She is 19. There is still a bottle of wine in the refrigerator from Ennis' time with Cassie. But at the lake with Jack, Ennis is still dealing with child support. Alma, Jr. would have probably been about 18 at the time. So, are we to assume a few months later she would be 19 and there would still be that old stale wine in the icebox?

Have you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?  (I hope you know that I am being sarcastic.  It still is important to note, however, that there are major loopholes when it comes to these timelines!)

[serious crayons]

Quote from: latjoreme on Today at 09:16:16 am

(for all Ennis knows, the other fella is someone Jack met and fell in love with AFTER seeing Ennis the last time -- at least we have reason to think otherwise),

Jack went up to LF immediately following his last trip with Ennis.  In fact he told Ennis at the truck that he was gonna head up to LF for a day or two.

I have always assumed that when Jack's father told Ennis " then this spring he says he's gonna bring another fella up here to whup this ranch into shape, blah blah blah"  -  well I have always thought that Jack said this on that self-same visit to LF, the day after leaving Ennis for the last time.   Doesn't Ennis also think the same thing, that it was the very next day?

Could well be. And he could have said that to OMT on that very visit out of frustration with Ennis or with his dad or both.

But my point was not what WE know, but what ENNIS knows. And I think if Ennis doesn't realize that Jack was already involved with the guy at the same time as Jack was saying how much he missed Ennis, it would be even sadder for Ennis. We know that Jack had known Randall for a while, so we can surmise he probably wasn't all that serious about Randall, or he wouldn't still be missing Ennis. But if Ennis thinks they might have become involved at some later point, he can't know they weren't a serious couple -- he might think Jack had fallen in love with someone else, forgotten about Ennis and moved on.

Besides, I agree with Diane. The timeline in this movie is all screwy.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Ahh the timeline....  that project that I just never got around to yet.  I know that there have been some really great timelines created, I just don't know where they are.  But for me the timeline surrounding that period of time is:

• Spring 1983:  Jack and Ennis have their last fishing trip off at least one week.  Jack:  "It's gonna snow tonight for sure."

• Their last day together:  Jack leaves and drives to LF for a visit of a day or two.

• Sometime between Spring and August:  (my guestimate):  Jack dies.  "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack...."  is what Annie Proulx wrote.

• End of September:  (my guesstimate) Ennis sends his postcard to Jack about meeting up on November 7th.

• Early-mid October: (my guesstimate) the postcard is returned, stamped with that horrible word in red ink.

• _______________:  Ennis' trip to LF to ask for the ashes.  Since John Twist says "this spring" in his little rant, I am thinking that this still 1983.

Is this timeline accurate people?

Jake,

Your timeline is the way I understand the sequence of events in the original Annie Proulx story. She says clearly that Ennis and Jack's last fishing trip--and the final confrontation--took place in May 1983. I've always understood that Jack made his remark about the ranch neighbor to his father on the visit he made to Lightning Flat just after the confrontation with Ennis. You might get an argument about the sequence for the film, however, because the screenplay dates the final confrontation in 1981 and Ennis's receipt of his postcard stamped "deceased" in 1982.

The difference in chronology is reflected in Jack's dialogue. Annie has Jack say, "Count the damn few times we been together in twenty years." The screenplay has Jack say, "Count the damn few times we been together in nearly twenty years." (I added the italics to point up the difference.)

The difference in chronology notwithstanding, I've always understood that in the film Jack also makes the remark to his father during the visit immediately after the confrontation with Ennis--and I've also understood that in both story and film, this is Jack's last visit to his parents before his death.

I hadn't realized that some folks are uncomfortable thinking Jack would talk about the ranch neighbor so soon after the confrontation. It has never troubled me because I think it fits the mood of depression and bitterness I would expect Jack would be in at that time. And I'm feeling now that the comment about the ranch neighbor is really Jack's bitterness and unhappiness talking. I'm doubting now that he would have really gone back to Texas and "proposed" to Randall the way he "proposed" to Ennis in '67.

As far as it goes, I think someone has already mentioned, we don't ever actually see Jack suggesting to Ennis in so many words that they ranch up together on the Twist spread in Lightning Flat. We only see Jack propose that they set up their own little cow and calf operation. For all we really see in either story or film, Jack was ruminating about bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat to his father and mother for years but never said a word to Ennis.

[nakymaton]

I hadn't realized that some folks are uncomfortable thinking Jack would talk about the ranch neighbor so soon after the confrontation. It has never troubled me because I think it fits the mood of depression and bitterness I would expect Jack would be in at that time. And I'm feeling now that the comment about the ranch neighbor is really Jack's bitterness and unhappiness talking. I'm doubting now that he would have really gone back to Texas and "proposed" to Randall the way he "proposed" to Ennis in '67.

Yes. Exactly. Actually, it really really surprises me that people think any other timeline makes sense. (The dates in the screenplay are all screwed up, so I just ignore them all. But this timeline makes sense based on the story, and based on the behavior of the characters.)

I've always assumed that, after Jack moved to Texas, that he only visited his parents after his visits with Ennis. (It is a long drive, after all.) So Jack's comments about how he and Ennis were going to move to Lightning Flat and whip the ranch back into shape happened when Jack was feeling especially mushy towards Ennis, too.

[fernly]

Another thought about Randall... you know, the character is just designed to make Jack miss Ennis. For instance: Randall's got this college education... in Animal Husbandry. Randall went to college to learn the kind of stuff that Ennis learned from experience, starting in his teens when he dropped out of high school. (And Jack meets Randall when Randall's car is broken down, and Randall couldn't fix it. Contrast that with the way Ennis helped get Jack's truck started, there at the end of the Brokeback summer.)

That makes a lot of sense. He's wearing 'Ennis' colors, too, and he's tall, and quiet.

Jack helping Randall and LaShawn out when their truck breaks down out "on the side of the road" contrasts sorrowfully for me too with when Jack's truck breaks down and no one is there to help him.

[dly64]

You might get an argument about the sequence for the film, however, because the screenplay dates the final confrontation in 1981 and Ennis's receipt of his postcard stamped "deceased" in 1982.

The difference in chronology is reflected in Jack's dialogue. Annie has Jack say, "Count the damn few times we been together in twenty years." The screenplay has Jack say, "Count the damn few times we been together in nearly twenty years." (I added the italics to point up the difference.)

I never noticed that before, but it is clearly stated in the screenplay … which makes the timelines more reasonable. But there are still discrepancies. So, I try not to focus so much on the logistics. It only makes me frustrated.

As far as it goes, I think someone has already mentioned, we don't ever actually see Jack suggesting to Ennis in so many words that they ranch up together on the Twist spread in Lightning Flat. We only see Jack propose that they set up their own little cow and calf operation. For all we really see in either story or film, Jack was ruminating about bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat to his father and mother for years but never said a word to Ennis.

Jack has always been depicted as a dreamer … and I think the whole “Ennis del Mar … I’m gonna bring him up here and we’re gonna lick this damn ranch into shape..” scenario was Jack’s wishful thinking. Ennis knows Jack is a dreamer … “Texas? Maybe you’ll convince Alma to let you and Lureen adopt the girls, and then we could all live together herding sheep, and it’ll rain money from L.D. Newsom and whiskey will flow in the streams ….”  as  does Lureen … “But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where bluebirds sing and there’s a whiskey spring.”  And even OMT says, “.. but like most of Jack’s ideas, it never come to pass.”  Poor Jack! Always the dream, never the substance.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The dates in the screenplay are all screwed up, so I just ignore them all.

Tell you what, I ignore them, too! 

(Sorry folks, couldn't resist that. ...)

[welliwont]

because the screenplay dates the final confrontation in 1981 and Ennis's receipt of his postcard stamped "deceased" in 1982.

and

(The dates in the screenplay are all screwed up, so I just ignore them all.

I agree, the screenplay must be wrong.  If, according to the screenplay,  Ennis tells Jack in 1981 that he is going to have to skip August, and the next trip is in November...... then, Ennis sends Jack a postcard in 1982, to plan their next fishing trip on November 7th..... what 'n the hell ever happened to September October November December, January February March April May June July and August?       It don't make sense to me.

 when Jack was feeling especially mushy towards Ennis, too.

awwwww........

Jane