Exactly WHEN does Jack decide.. th 1st tent scene..is gonna be th 1s tent scene?

[Lumière]

latjoreme - Great points!

I don't think that Jack got Ennis drunk per se.  Ennis is not a child, Jack couldn't have 'made him' drink the whiskey if her didn't want to.  Also, Ennis was the very responsible type,  I presume he would know when to stop drinking, especially since he had sheep-tending duties that night.  IMO, Ennis and Jack had been having a real swell evening, sitting by the fire, Jack serenading Ennis with his ..umm..singing  , their relaxed conversations kept flowing and so was the booze.  When Ennis makes the comment about 'never having the opportunity', I figured he was speaking in code ... and Jack very cleverly read between the lines.

I think that Jack was yearning from early on to be allowed to stay in the camp with Ennis.  When Jack was bitching about Aguirre 'having no right to make them break the rules', and "we both oughta be in this camp!", he was indirectly confessing his dire need to share the camp/tent with Ennis.  And then when Ennis offers to switch with him, Jack looks at Ennis as he walks to his horse, he says: "You won't get much sleep, I tell ya that" - as if he was giving Ennis another chance to reconsider and stay back at camp with him.  Of course, Ennis just utters a muffled "ya" and rides off.

I am positive that Jack was always looking for an opportunity to  share that tent with Ennis.  So on 'that' night, when Ennis was plastered, his defenses considerably lowered, Jack saw his chance to get Ennis to stay and seized it!  Ennis was clearly in no position to ride a horse, let alone watch the sheep all night.  Did Jack use the situation to his advantage? Definitely!!  Did he set up an elaborate plan to get Ennis drunk? IMO, no.  He went with the flow of events and tried to nudge things forward with Ennis, and it worked!

I bet when they were actually in 'the act', Jack couldn't believe his azz..i mean..eyes! 
I love that entire scene, it speaks volumes; from their drunken conversation till the 'morning after'..

[twistedude]

I think of a much more innocent Ennis than most of you. "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity," was a simple statement of fact; if it had been flirting, it would have been very bold indeed. The little noise Jack makes in response, accompnied by the offer of the whiskey bottle (although, as someone pointed out, it was not the plan to "get Ennis drunk.'  but for both of them top continue drinking), was--really brazen!I agree with the person who said Jack made his decision outside Aguirre's office, and Ennis made his in the tent --between the two pictures below. And the "all systems go" light for Jack didn't happen till they were lying close to eachother in the tent.

One reason I am so devistatd by my inability to find a DVD with a decent 1st tent scene is that I think it's terribly important scene, and represents an enormous translation for Ennis from simple profound friendship to passion. And his face, both in that scene and the one on the following night...I've never seen such wonderful acting.


What Jack couldn't know, but grew to know more and more after their reunion, was that Ennis in some sense would NEVER make the more profound decision (that Jack was the love of his life)--until after his (Jack's) death. That's I think what we call tragedy. O--what I felt for this man all these years is--just love, pure and simple...

[rtprod]

I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.

I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 

Love is composed of friendship and many other dimensions, so though it is technically correct--that Ennis thought of Jack as a "wonderful friend"--he also thought much more, and Jack just unlocked it at the right time in his life and in the right place.  When you think about it, for any love to flower a certain set of circumstances usually has to be in line -- the right time in lives, the right place, the right chemistry and other forces that are beyond what is knowable.  Sometimes, however, all of those things can be off and if the participants recognize it, even acknowlege the odd ulikeliness of it that seems to make perfect sense, in the right moment, it can be a beautiful thing.  But all the external orchestrating in the world won't make it happen (here on Jack's part, as some have suggested) if it's not inside the other person too. 

*said delicately on eggshells*

rt

[ednbarby]

I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.

I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 

Love is composed of friendship and many other dimensions, so though it is technically correct--that Ennis thought of Jack as a "wonderful friend"--he also thought much more, and Jack just unlocked it at the right time in his life and in the right place.  When you think about it, for any love to flower a certain set of circumstances usually has to be in line -- the right time in lives, the right place, the right chemistry and other forces that are not knowable.  Sometimes, however, all of those things can be off and if the participants recognize it, even acknowlege the odd ulikeliness of it that seems to make perfect sense, in the right moment, it can be a beautiful thing.  But all the external orchestrating in the world won't make it happen (here on Jack's part, as some have suggested) if it's not inside the other person too. 

rt

I wholeheartedly agree with you, RT.  That's what I mean about Jack carefully reading Ennis all along the way.  He knows he's falling for him by the way he opens up to him about his childhood and about his virginity in a way he knows he's never opened up to anyone else.  And while Ennis may not have been flirting with him on the virginity admission, he was *definitely* flirting when he said, "My daddy says rodeo riders are a bunch o' fuck-ups" - just look at the way he looks at him, relishing the reaction he knows is coming.  And I don't mean to paint Jack as a conniving, manipulative thing.  It's just that when you're in love and you're working on a seduction, you do take very deliberate, if tentative, steps.  I don't think Jack consciously "got Ennis drunk," but I think that when you enjoy another's company and you'd also like to explore their nether regions, if alcohol is available and you're both up to drinking it, that definitely comes into play.

Again, I go back to my first love and what it took to seduce him.  It was months in the making, let me tell you.  Most of that time was spent thinking that I didn't have a chance.  But every now and then he would flirt with me in a way that seemed different from how he acted with every other girl.  I'd think "Did I just imagine that?"  But each time, I got bolder.  Finally, we were both out with the usual suspects one Friday night, enjoying the 2-for-1 happy hour at the local watering hole (and I must admit I bought more than my usual share of those rounds), and while he was talking away in his Italian way with his hands, I grabbed one of them as he finished his point.  We looked each other in the eye for several seconds, and then he grabbed mine back with the other hand.  We looked each other in the eye for another several seconds, and then, without a word to each other, we said good-bye to our friends and headed for his car.  The rest, as they say, is history.

[serious crayons]

I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.

I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 
rt

Oddly enough, I agree with both of these. I think Ennis tries really hard at first to think of Jack as just a wonderful friend. He also is falling in love, but won't let himself admit it consciously.

People in other threads have insisted that Ennis "isn't in touch with his feelings" and I've argued against that. I think he understands what he's feeling after TS1, certainly by TS2. When he's puking in the alley or bounding into Jack's arms at the reunion, I think he knows exactly how he feels.

But early in the summer, not being in touch with his feelings seems the perfect way to describe him.

[slayers_creek_oth]

I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.

I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 

Love is composed of friendship and many other dimensions, so though it is technically correct--that Ennis thought of Jack as a "wonderful friend"--he also thought much more, and Jack just unlocked it at the right time in his life and in the right place.  When you think about it, for any love to flower a certain set of circumstances usually has to be in line -- the right time in lives, the right place, the right chemistry and other forces that are beyond what is knowable.  Sometimes, however, all of those things can be off and if the participants recognize it, even acknowlege the odd ulikeliness of it that seems to make perfect sense, in the right moment, it can be a beautiful thing.  But all the external orchestrating in the world won't make it happen (here on Jack's part, as some have suggested) if it's not inside the other person too. 

*said delicately on eggshells*

rt

I agree rt.....100%

[twistedude]

I said "translation," not "creation." I have a funny feeling that if we all hashed this out, with all of us talking, we would discover that what I mean by friendship," you mean by "love."

Perhaps we all go back, when analysing someone else's feelings, to our own histories. I was read a book at the age ofr 2 about sex and having babies, and the words "
love" and "closeness' were uised...but I remember wondering "why would two grown-ups wasnt to engage in a silly act like that, just to make babies?"

I had crushes on movie stars, and finally on boys, when I was 10-15--but I did not know what sex WAS. My fantasies always ended with a kiss. I recognized a sort of restless longing in me, but I guess I thought there was no answer for it.  (I guess i didn't have much of a sex drive because it didn't bother me very much!).

I learned about orgasms--when I had one. So THAT's what it's all about. I was THINKING so much about the damn thing, my boyfriend wasn't eactly sure what had happened to me; I probably looked like I'd gone into a thinking fit.

I have a feeling that Ennis says so little, and expresses so little, that we all write upon him something of our own early experiences with sex.

Still think I'm right, though!

[littleguitar]

When Ennis jerks awake, his first impulse is to go with his 10 years of self-training: denial, anger, pushing Jack away. But then ... he stops. He may be drunk, but his mind is working. Confronted by this powerful attraction, he finally allows himself to consciously acknowledge it. He realizes that he is being offered for something he has always wanted but never in his life expected to have. In that instant, he sets aside everything he has told himself all these years and decides to go for it, to reach out for this one chance. It's a huge turning point for Ennis. That's why I consider this moment (pictured in Julie's jpeg!) perhaps the most powerful five seconds in the movie. He moves toward Jack, grabs onto him and pulls him closer (just as he will do 20 years later by the lake).

I agree with a lot of what was said here (not just this quote, the whole thread) but I wanted to put in what I thought as well.

I agree that these 5 seconds are really powerful, but I don't think it is just Ennis that makes the decision to go for it in those 5 seconds.  I think that yes, Jack is aware of his feelings and that there has been a slow seduction or build up toward the romance throughout the movie, but I think that night Jack didn't have an agenda. I agree with those who think that the conversation was just flowing easily and naturally and so was the whiskey and what happened afterwards, while fueled by the alcohol, wasn't really Jack scheming to get Ennis drunk so that something would come of it.  It seems to me that, in that first tent scene, when Jack reaches over and grabs Ennis's hand, he is doing it in his sleep and when they both jump up he is just as surprised as Ennis.  There is a moment, in those 5 seconds, where Jack looks at Ennis and, to me, it seems as if he is making up his mind as to whether or not to go any further.  There is a moment of hesitation, then decision, then he reaches down and undoes his pants.  As someone else pointed out, Jack took a huge risk in moving on Ennis and though I do think he was sure of his feelings and was going to go through with it no matter what and had wanted it for a long time, I still feel like there was  just a slight moment of "oh god, should I really do this?" from Jack in that tent scene.

As for the "you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity", Ennis may not have been consciously flirting, but he definitly knew he was saying something cheeky, he has this amazing mischevious, slightly embarrassed look on his face right after he says it that I just love! IMO, he was saying I'm still a virgin but would like that to change real soon...

This is a really great thread by the way! Thanks for starting it!

[DeeDee]

I thought along the same lines as littleguitar.  I think Jack was just as stunned finding himself holding Ennis' hand by his groin.  I also believe Ennis started falling in love as he was opening up to Jack.
Just  after Ennis says he hasn't sinned yet, we hear Jack go "mmmm". His wheels were already spinning.
You could also see the confusion on Ennis' face (superbly played by Heath) as he pushes him away, then pulls him in and will absolutely not kiss him. 
God I love that whole scene.

[ednbarby]

I agree that Jack does not have a (conscious) agenda that night.  Just as I didn't have one the night I met my friends in the bar and the object of my affection was there.  I don't think I did even as I kept buying drinks - it was more that I liked being with him and wanted to keep him there, and the conversation was flowing freely and easily and we were all laughing our heads off, so why not?  But getting him in the Biblical sense was something that was always in the back of my mind.  I saw a sudden opportunity, I seized it - almost subconsciously, really - it worked out.  Similarly, I don't see Jack actively trying to seduce him that night.  I see the whiskey flowing because they were enjoying each other's company.  And I see what ultimately happens as just being the natural culmination of a mutual attraction where one person takes a chance that he has reason to believe will turn out well.  I guess I've never questioned its authenticity because I've been there.