Author Topic: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"  (Read 6754 times)

Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2018, 10:55:04 am »
I swear I've practically memorized this film!

I particularly love the layers of ambiguity. Poor Cassie.  "You get your point across", but she doesn't get the real point.

This kinda reminds me of a scene in A Single Man.  Colin Firth is in the bank when a neighbor's daughter approaches him.  She says, "Mom says you're light in the loafers, but you're not even wearing loafers!" 
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2018, 11:01:05 am »
Yes, I think Cassie was focusing on her own feelings of being used. Beyond that she has no incite into what was causing that.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2018, 01:01:17 pm »
I swear I've practically memorized this film!

I particularly love the layers of ambiguity. Poor Cassie.  "You get your point across", but she doesn't get the real point.

It's been w-a-a-a-y too long for me. I'm not here to argue a point, but can anybody refresh my memory on why Junior's comments indicate that she knows her father is gay?

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She says, "Mom says you're light in the loafers, but you're not even wearing loafers!" 

 :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2018, 03:11:32 pm »
It's been w-a-a-a-y too long for me. I'm not here to argue a point, but can anybody refresh my memory on why Junior's comments indicate that she knows her father is gay?


We don't know exactly what she knows, but her choice of idiom suggests she may.

Didn't you post this?   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/not-be-the-marrying-kind
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2018, 04:29:36 pm »
We don't know exactly what she knows, but her choice of idiom suggests she may.

Didn't you post this?   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/not-be-the-marrying-kind

Yes, I did, but I read that as indicating a man may be gay, but apparently it doesn't necessarily mean he's gay.

If my research skills were better, it might be interesting to know something of the history of the usage.

It's been so long I have no recollection of when (year) that scene took place, and how old Junior was at the time. Perhaps one or both may have influenced her choice of words. ("What did she know, and when did she know it?") Or is she just generally pissed off and rude to Cassie because she was expecting quality time alone with her daddy, and he brings her along. I don't think I ever understood that as being "time you met my daughter." I think I felt it was just Ennis being socially tone-deaf.

And then again, maybe she does know he's gay and that's what she means. I just don't remember ever being convinced of that, or possibly even assuming that's what she meant. It may never even have occurred to me.

As I remember it, it seem to me that Ennis seems so antisocial that it strikes me as something of a wonder that he even hooks up with Cassie, or the unnamed would-be nursing student he puts the blocks to later.

It's all so long ago, yet I can't even imagine going back to watch the film even to review this scene..
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 05:20:03 pm »
Yes, I did, but I read that as indicating a man may be gay, but apparently it doesn't necessarily mean he's gay.

True.  In fact, it can also mean "confirmed bachelor".  Dean Martin had a song called "Not the Marrying Kind", where he basically says no woman will tie him down.

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If my research skills were better, it might be interesting to know something of the history of the usage.

I haven't had much luck finding the history.

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It's been so long I have no recollection of when (year) that scene took place, and how old Junior was at the time. Perhaps one or both may have influenced her choice of words. ("What did she know, and when did she know it?") Or is she just generally pissed off and rude to Cassie because she was expecting quality time alone with her daddy, and he brings her along. I don't think I ever understood that as being "time you met my daughter." I think I felt it was just Ennis being socially tone-deaf.

I'd say late '70s, and Junior's about 15. I don't know how common the phrase was then.  I suspect Larry and Diana thought it was appropriately ambiguous!
Junior sure makes a sour face when Cassie shows up.

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And then again, maybe she does know he's gay and that's what she means. I just don't remember ever being convinced of that, or possibly even assuming that's what she meant. It may never even have occurred to me.

Not sure I'm convinced either. Remains ambiguous. I wonder if she picked up on something when "Uncle Jack" came to visit, post-divorce.

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As I remember it, it seem to me that Ennis seems so antisocial that it strikes me as something of a wonder that he even hooks up with Cassie, or the unnamed would-be nursing student he puts the blocks to later.

It's all so long ago, yet I can't even imagine going back to watch the film even to review this scene..

I might say "asocial". He passively succumbs to Cassie's charms.
I always thought Cassie was the one he was putting the blocks to, because of the proximity to the apple pie scene.
By the way, she makes a nice nurse:

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 05:53:09 pm »
True.  In fact, it can also mean "confirmed bachelor".

Of course, "confirmed bachelor" can also be code for gay.  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 05:54:17 pm »
Of course, "confirmed bachelor" can also be code for gay.  ;D

 :laugh:
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2018, 10:27:15 am »
Perhaps one or both may have influenced her choice of words. ("What did she know, and when did she know it?") Or is she just generally pissed off and rude to Cassie because she was expecting quality time alone with her daddy, and he brings her along.

... And then again, maybe she does know he's gay and that's what she means.

I hate to be the reminder, but Junior didn't choose those words. Diana and Larry did. So while if this were real life we could speculate as to whether or not Junior knew Ennis was gay, since this is a movie the dialogue isn't there to express the genuine feelings of the person on the screen -- it's there to have an effect on the audience.

Which is why I think we're debating this point after 12 f'in years. I believe the screenwriters meant it to be ambiguous, just like they meant a lot of scenes and dialogue and motivations to be ambiguous. Maybe because back in them days homosexuality was such an unspoken taboo that people were always a little unsure what others were really thinking. And if you were gay, you'd have to constantly remain on guard and read between the lines.

There are other examples of this in the film. It seems fairly clear that Old Man Twist knew, and that the audience is supposed to know he knew. But was he pissed off because he was a homophobe or because Jack's offer to help with the farm never came to pass? Was Aguirre, who clearly did know, pissed off because he was a homophobe or because he the boys left the dogs to mind the sheep while they stemmed the rose? Did the guys playing pool know, or did they just look threatening under the circumstances? Did Ennis need to worry about the passing truck when Jack visits? And then there's the most important ambiguity of all: how Jack died.

So to analyze the Jr./Cassie scene we should keep in mind that good screenplays are economical. This movie isn't about Ennis' whole life, including his relationship with his daughters and everything else. And it's certainly not about Junior. So there's no need to have a prolonged scene establishing that his daughter is resentful that Cassie has intruded on her time with her dad, because that would be off topic. The scene is there because it's in some way connected to what the movie actually is about, which is Ennis' relationship with Jack.

So given that, I think Junior (i.e., Diana and Larry) "chose" her idiom for a very specific reason, which is to deepen the complexity and ambiguity of the circumstances Ennis always lived in.


I suspect Larry and Diana thought it was appropriately ambiguous!

I agree.

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I always thought Cassie was the one he was putting the blocks to, because of the proximity to the apple pie scene.

I agree with this, too.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2018, 11:20:16 am »
I hate to be the reminder, but Junior didn't choose those words. Diana and Larry did. So while if this were real life we could speculate as to whether or not Junior knew Ennis was gay, since this is a movie the dialogue isn't there to express the genuine feelings of the person on the screen -- it's there to have an effect on the audience.

Sure enough. But then why did we debate so much about practically anything and everything for so long all those years ago if we weren't, well, pretending, that these were real people with real emotions and real reasons for doing and saying things? We could all have just said, "It's a movie" and had done with it

Cassie was the one he was putting the blocks to, because of the proximity to the apple pie scene.

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I agree with this, too.

I don't suppose I did, because I was never sure how much time was supposed to have elapsed between the two scenes, and I don't remember any dialog about Cassie wanting to go to nursing school.

I'm afraid I've always been a little ambivalent about Cassie because the first time we see her is that business of "tryin' a get a foot rub" from some guy she's (presumably) just met (or I've always assumed they've just met; maybe that was Ennis' usual waterin' hole and they'd seen each other before). On the other hand, I really feel for her when she and her (new) boyfriend encounter Ennis in the apple pie scene. I think she's downright heart-breaking there, and I think Linda plays that scene very well.

(Kind of OT, but often I seem to have trouble figuring out/understanding how much time is supposed to have elapsed between scenes in movies and especially scenes in "serial"-type TV shows, especially when the amount of time is not constant. Of course an exception would be when in one scene the characters are young and in the next they've been aged significantly, or the other way 'round when an older character is supposed to be thinking back to something that happened when he or she was young.)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:54:18 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.