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What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
ednbarby:
--- Quote from: atz75 on May 02, 2006, 08:43:33 pm ---Well, I'm a gay woman and while I don't get *turned on* so to speak by two guys being intimate... I completely love and adore the fact that this is a powerful and amazing gay romance. I think our boys are adorable and I love to see them *being together* but my reaction to all this is on a level that I really can't explain. I think that's a huge part of the reason why I am so preoccupied with the movie.
:-\ :D
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You know, Amanda, I do think that those of us who respond to this movie like we do are responding to it on a very primal level. You're right - it is very difficult to put it into words. My husband responded to it on that level, I think, and I doubt very much that he's turned on by gay sex per ce. (But, hey, I've been wrong about him before.)
I think that for straight/bi women and gay men, there is certainly an element of empathizing on the level of knowing what it is to be passionately in love with a man. But I don't think it's the only element - it can't be, or straight men and gay women wouldn't be moved by it like so many are. Perhaps it is the universal aspect of missed opportunities, of fear holding us back from being all we could be, so to speak. But, just like you, I think there's more to it than that. I can't quite put a finger on it, but I think it has to do with the idea or memory of finding that one person in a million with whom you can be utterly yourself and then the idea or memory of losing such a person forever when you had it in your power not to that's what cut my husband (and me, come to think of it) to the core.
Aussie Chris:
Hey there Amanda & Barb, I must say that I take some pride in the fact that I asked a question you couldn't immediately answer! :D I think the two of you are right up there in the expert category (as far as I am concerned) when it comes to understanding all the nuances of this film, particularly in terms of artistic merit, aesthetics, and symbology, so it intrigues me to think about all these elements add up to affect you (and us all) on a personal level.
Within this context of this discussion, I'm not convinced that it is merely about being able to identify with the missed opportunities of the characters, etc, etc. I'm happy to accept that there are primal responses involved that go beyond gender and orientation, but are we saying that romance *is* primal? Or put another way, is there a fundamental need by humans to love and be loved that goes beyond sexuality? I certainly believe this is true for me, but I wonder if I would feel the same if it were two women, or a man and a woman? Being a gay man I'm not sure I could (a humble admission). Note we have to suspend the "unattainable element" aspect of the BBM for a moment (at least for a straight version).
What are your thoughts?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on May 02, 2006, 06:04:13 pm ---You know it's crossed my mind from time to time why this relationship (Jack & Ennis) works for straight women. In general (forgive me please), I am of the understanding that most women are not "turned on" by gay sex, although that might be more about male's preoccupation with pornography. Do you think BBM is accessible to women simply because of the romance angle? Is this all that was needed to override any issues of gender/orientation?
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I'm glad you asked this, Chris, because this has been an intriguing part of the experience for me. It IS difficult to explain, but I will try. I was surprised myself that I found the love scenes so thrilling. For one thing, I'm usually not hugely interested in watching people of any orientation have sex unless one of the people is me. I don't find most movie sex scenes sexy. I only do if a) they're very aesthetically appealing: beautiful lighting and cinematography, beautiful actors (yes, I'm shallow), etc. AND b) the backstory is engaging -- usually that means romantic, and c) they are convincingly passionate (which right there excludes 90 percent of movies). Frankly, I did expect to find this one even less exciting than usual. I've never felt particularly interested in watching gay men together, no offense to anyone, not because I'm homophobic (I hope) but because that seems like something that by definition wouldn't include me. Also, when I HAVE felt engaged in love scenes in straight movies, I assumed it was because I identified with Julia or Gwyneth or whoever -- I put myself in the woman's place, she's my portal into the scene. With this there'd be no portal.
So anyway, obviously I was wrong. Brokeback passes all those tests for me. Aesthetic appeal? Check. Romantic story? Check. Convincingly passionate? Man, that's for sure. And as far as being able to put myself into the scene, turns out gender doesn't matter for this, so this movie actually TWICE as many portals, twice as many ways to be drawn in as straight movies do. When I previously assumed I was identifying with the actress as a fellow woman (so to speak), I now realize that actually I was putting myself in her place simply because I was attracted to the man. With Brokeback, I can put myself in either place and still have fun! And as for feeling drawn into the scene, hard to feel otherwise when the camera moves in so close you can see spit strings! I'm THERE.
Yes, it's unrealistic: I couldn't actually BE part of that scene because I'm female. On the other hand, I also couldn't be there because it's fictional and I'm allergic to horses. So what's the difference?
So that's what I learned about myself. That I actually CAN find movie sex scenes sexy regardless of orientation as long as they a) are well filmed, b) romantic, c) passionate and d) star Heath and Jake.
PS While I was writing this, you posted again, Chris. I've already droned on for a long time (I always feel like such a thread hog!), but my first thoughts are: certainly I think there is a fundamental need for humans to love that goes beyond sexuality. I would think anybody could connect with this movie in that way. But if you ask why I find the love scenes so erotic, well, there's my answer.
But also, I've wondered if, since 99.9999 percent of the movies ever made have featured straight characters, are gay people able to put themselves into those scenes? In other words, could you go through my process in reverse (reducing from two portals to one, unfortunately)? (BTW, in case anybody questions this, yes, that means men would have to put themselves in the actress' place and women the actor's. But again, what matters is not which person you IDENTIFY with, but which person you would rather TAKE THE PLACE OF.)
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 03, 2006, 12:44:14 am ---PS While I was writing this, you posted again, Chris. I've already droned on for a long time (I always feel like such a thread hog!), but my first thoughts are: certainly I think there is a fundamental need for humans to love that goes beyond sexuality. I would think anybody could connect with this movie in that way. But if you ask why I find the love scenes so erotic, well, there's my answer.
But also, I've wondered if, since 99.9999 percent of the movies ever made have featured straight characters, are gay people able to put themselves into those scenes? In other words, could you go through my process in reverse (reducing from two portals to one, unfortunately)? (BTW, in case anybody questions this, yes, that means men would have to put themselves in the actress' place and women the actor's. But again, what matters is not which person you IDENTIFY with, but which person you would rather TAKE THE PLACE OF.)
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Hey there Katherine, great post, exactly the sort of thing I was looking to talk about. And I love that you're [occasionally] a thread hog, because everything you write has such substance - or maybe because I tend to agree with you - anyway, whatever hog away my dear! ;)
Anyway, thanks for flipping it around on me. I guess I first have to eliminate the same 99.9% of sex scenes that you do. Rarely are they sexy for me, they seem abstractly stuck on because of some formulaic need to have them there. Ironically, most non-romance films still "need" to have a sex scene. To be honest, off the top of my head I can't think of a single sex scene that I actually find erotic. I'm sure I have, I just can't think of any. They always seem more like a plot device than about eroticism.
Ok, to make this work for me I need expand this into general romance (kissing etc) in order for me to identify with it. I think the easy answer is that I mostly identify with [or take the place of] the woman in the scene. It's actually a little tricky though for much the same reason that you could never have a relationship with Jack & Ennis, being female and all. In straight films I have the same problem. I guess, like you in Brokeback, I simply suspend disbelief momentarily and dive in as if I *was* a woman.
ednbarby:
That's an excellent point, Katherine - I think the love scenes are so thrilling for me for primarily the same reason. I can identify with both characters at once, and so I can imagine myself in either of their places in any given, uh, time.
And Chris, I do think that we do have a need for love as human beings that goes beyond sex. Since I tend to see everything from an evolutionary standpoint, that need makes sense in that as human beings, our survival rates are probably higher when we mate for life. And in order to mate for life, there needs to be something more there than great sex. Physical passion fades over time, and if you then find you're with someone you can't stand talking to, it all goes out the window.
Like I said before, love to me is finding that one in million with whom you can be utterly yourself. I think we all need to make that connection - to find the other half of our souls - because perhaps without it, our survival as a species would have been tenuous. I mean, imagine if there were no such thing as that kind of love. If we all walked around never finding or having a life partner. Or even a series of long-term life partners. I really don't see how we could have survived over the ages without it. And it's not just about stronger men protecting weaker women. It's not about that much at all. It's about feeling like we're a part of something bigger than we are as individuals. It's faith personified. I do think we need that.
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