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Do You Believe in Marriage?
Brown Eyes:
In using the word "believe" I mean to ask about your own, personal strong convictions and opinions on what marriage is or means and whether or not it's a worthy institution. I think a lot of people think of marriage as a moral/ ethical thing so I think the word "believe" works.
I personally don't believe in marriage. And, I have fairly strong opinions about it (at least as far as decisions about my own life go...). The ironic thing, that I even have difficulty explaining and articulating to myself is that while I don't believe in marriage... I also DO believe in gay marriage. I guess if marriage exists it really must exist as an option for both gay people and straight people. But, in a more ideal scenario from my perspective... marriage as an institution would not be necessary. I do think it's mostly a patriarchal institution and aspects of the history of marriage are actually pretty scary/ disheartening. And, I think in many places around the world today marriage is still used as an oppressive tool to suppress women.
I do think that permanent commitment between partners is wonderful and romantic. But, I don't think that marriage is necessarily the best expression of this. And I think true love exists beyond even the realm of more general commitment. I suspect that some/many of the greatest real-life love stories (i.e. Brokeback-type stories) exist well outside the realm of marriage.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: atz75 on October 23, 2007, 08:48:19 pm ---In using the word "believe" I mean to ask about your own, personal strong convictions and opinions on what marriage is or means and whether or not it's a worthy institution. I think a lot of people think of marriage as a moral/ ethical thing so I think the word "believe" works.
--- End quote ---
OK, I was taking you literally. Marriage is a pretty solid legal and ritual act. Whether people believe it's a moral/ethical thing is a personal feeling and doesn't reflect on the legal act at all. You can believe you have a soul mate, or that the gods/fate joined you together or that you've been together in many previous incarnations, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, it is a 'please sign at the bottom of this marriage license' act. You can be married religiously or in your hearts, but the State won't recognize your marriage, won't extend you the rights, privileges and benefits unless you sign on the dotted line.
--- Quote ---I personally don't believe in marriage. And, I have fairly strong opinions about it (at least as far as decisions about my own life go...). The ironic thing, that I even have difficulty explaining and articulating to myself is that while I don't believe in marriage... I also DO believe in gay marriage. I guess if marriage exists it really must exist as an option for both gay people and straight people. But, in a more ideal scenario from my perspective... marriage as an institution would not be necessary. I do think it's mostly a patriarchal institution and aspects of the history of marriage are actually pretty scary/ disheartening. And, I think in many places around the world today marriage is still used as an oppressive tool to suppress women.
--- End quote ---
It is because marriage was once simply an economic transaction, joining the strengths of two families. Women have rarely had the iindependence men have had, so they were pretty much the bargaining chip, sold off to the highest/best bidder. There's nothing more that can make you feel like a piece of property...but then of course, women were and still are in some places.
But recent changes in attitude and society have changed the marriage ceremony to more of a love-fest - at least in the West. It is funny to pay attention to the ceremony and see what little vestiges still abound from earlier times.
The bride is 'given away', escorted by her family to show she's still a virgin, under the protection (control) of her family, the groom arrives ahead of time, alone with his friends, ready to take 'delivery'. She has a veil, to hide her looks from evil eyes and to symbolize her modesty and chasteness, but then the groom lifts it to make sure they gave him the right woman. The audience is asked if someone objects to the wedding (giving time for previous suitors or those who already had a downpayment on the bride to object), the woman changes her name, becoming part of his family/property. Almost all weddings have bowls of nuts at the reception. For fertility, doncha know, that's what she's there for, after all. Single women support the bride, at the same time advertising their virtue and the fact that they're up for sale as well. ;D
If you want to own an house, and want your SO to help pay for/share it with you, I strongly suggest marriage. Legal marriage gives you both the rights and protections of the law. It's foolish to think of acquiring lots of assets and not get such legal protection. Heck, the tax breaks alone are worth it to get married. If you have children, again, a married person has the protection and rights of the law as far as custody and care and financial support of the children.
A movie star recently left her live-in lover of 10 years and ran off with her movie director and married him. She took the 5 year old daughter she had with her old lover and moved 6000 miles away. The old lover's rights to access his child were extremely limited because he never married the mother. I felt sorry for him, but [shrug] there you are.
I have a great respect for marriage as an institution and the people who commit to it. When you see one that works, it's a beautiful thing. I don't want to be married, don't like the idea of it, except for those circumstances I mentioned, yet I find that I'm more respectful of marriage than most of the married people I know. They marry for stupid or childish reasons, got married unthinkingly and then found themselves stuck, have unrealistic expectations and/or aren't mature or committed enough to stay in one. Go figure.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on October 23, 2007, 09:13:56 pm ---OK, I was taking you literally.
--- End quote ---
I know. :)
--- Quote ---It is because marriage was once simply an economic transaction
--- End quote ---
I still think, even in modern American/western/industrialized, etc. cultures it's still an economic transaction in large measure... once you strip away the romantic aura that's built up around marriages/weddings.
And, yes, you're absolutely right that the traditional wedding ceremony as most/many of us have witnessed or experienced bears lots of wierd traces of upsetting old traditions. Such as the concept of a the "woman exchange" where a woman is passed directly from the father to the groom as an exchange between two men. The walk-down-the-aisle with the father figure definitely has some scary baggage to it. My lesbian friends who recently got married in Massachusetts walked each other down the aisle... or walked together because there was no way to really reconcile this aspect of the ceremony with the gesture/principle of a lesbian marriage (even though both of their fathers were there in the audience and very supportive).
And, my Mother had to fight tooth and nail to have the word "obey" removed from her wedding vows. She got married in the Methodist church in the early '70s. Both my parents are feminists, both were major hippies in the '60s and early '70s and their marriage song was the Beatles "Her Comes the Sun"... so my family generally has pretty progressive views on marriage. But, still it was a fight to remove some of the more objectionable aspects of the the ceremony itself.
dot-matrix:
To you, is marriage...
A romantic ideal? Hardly..to many people go into it looking only at that first flush of heat and hearts and flowers. That doesn't last very long and if that's all you had then you are sunk
An oppressive, patriarchal institution that should go the way of the dinosaurs? Only if you look at it superficially. In my experience this argument is used often by commitment phobes
Mostly about social pressure? Maybe in some cultures but I can not see that as the case in the west any longer, not even in the case of unplanned pregnancy
A stuffy convention? The way some people do it
Necessary as an expression of true love between partners? No, it is not for everyone, but everyone who wants to be married should have that opportunity.
Irrelevant to the state of true love between partners? Yes
Something you aspire to... or dream about happening to you one day? To late.. but I never worried about it or had it on my personal to do list. We just reached a point where we both liked the idea at the same time
Something you dread? No, but I had good role models. My folks were married 52 years before my Mom died. Sure they had their spats, but I always knew they loved each other and us. I never heard either of my parents bad mouth the other or name call. Likewise with both sets of Grandparents. I knew kids in school whose parents divorced, often there were public accusations of infidelity, drinking, etc...
Important in raising children? Not necessarily
Unnecessary to raising a happy, successful child? Depends on the couple
Something that seems to provide personal security or stability, but not necessarily personal fulfillment?
Etc? I agree with delluvia, it does provide a certain personal and financial stablity, in some instances like property, children and taxes, and in some cases security as well. In those instances it makes sense. As for personal fulfillment, marriage is like any other relationship it is what you make of it. No matter what you have to work at it, and be committed to it and to each other..both of you
Are you currently married and have strong feelings about the institution of marriage? Yes I'm married but I don't think it's for everyone. I think marriage requires maturity and a commitment to making it work. You have be over your self centered self absorbed years to be a good partner in a marriage and some people never get there.
Has Brokeback changed or impacted your views on marriage? No, #1 I've often thought that some men and women marry in haste for a wide variety of the wrong reasons and have cause to repent the decision at leisure. AND #2 I have always been a very vocal proponet for the legalization of gay marriage
ifyoucantfixit:
Contrary to my usual voice. I have only two things to say on this question..The institution of marriage should
be available to whoever wants it.. And the reverse should also be available to others who dont want it...Both
ways should be the individuals own choice. With no recriminations, or disdain by others.. Certainly not the law.
Yes I have been married for over 50 years. Yes I think it has its advantages for raising children..But that is
a two sided sword also..It totally depends on the marriage.. The fact of being married, gives you a certain amount
of stability and it provides you a helpmeet..Having said that..it also can be a problem for people trying to explore
themself..There is a certain amount of stifeling goes on..It all depends on what you place the most value on..
Your independance, or your partnership...?
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