TOTW 18/07: Do you think classic cowboy icons like the "Marlboro Man" were proto

[Penthesilea]

the first question I would have to settle in my mind is "Is Brokeback Mountain a western movie?" There are none of the other things I would think of as being in a western movie. (other than horses and sheep)

the time is wrong, the action is wrong,

to me this movie is a love story not a western

I can see your point and you are right, it depends of your definition of Western. BBM is clearly not a classical Western. This topic interested me enough to look up what wikipedia says about Westerns (all following quotes in navy are from this page:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_%28genre%29#)

In genereal, I think there are more things in BBM which are typical for Westerns than horses and sheep:

• the setting in the rural american West
• clothing
• equipment (they type of tent on Bokeback, the canvas buckets, the guns, etc. I would even put the pickups into this category, as a modern version of typical means of transportation in rural West)
• type of work which is done (and no, I don't mean selling combines  )
• the hero as stoic, taciturn loner
• the hero as standing somewhat outside society, being in conflict with military, law, or society in general
  
• the vast landscape becomes more than a vivid backdrop; it becomes a character in the movie

Wikipedia lists different sub-genres of the Western:

- Contemporary [Western] films: Contemporary Westerns are films that have contemporary American settings but nevertheless utilise Old West themes and motifs (a rebellious anti-hero, open plains and desert landscapes, and gunfights *). For the most part, they still take place in the American West and reveal the progression of the Old West mentality into the late twentieth century. This sub-genre often features Old West-type characters struggling with displacement in a "civilized" world that rejects their outdated brand of justice.

Examples include Tommy Lee Jones' The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada; Sam Peckinpah's Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (1974); John Sayles' Lone Star (1996); Robert Rodríguez's Once Upon a Time in Mexico (2003); Ang Lee's controversial film about gay cowboys, Brokeback Mountain (2005); and Wim Wenders' Don't Come Knocking (2005).

* = in BBM, we have part of these examples:

• Ennis as anti-hero (think about the fireworks scene, which ends itself with a classical Western shot where Ennis looks much like the archetype of a cowboy - yet it's not a heroic situation for him, his family is terrified by his behaviour). The rebellious thing is quite interesting: while I don't see Ennis as rebellious by character at all (in contrast, he tries hard to blend in), he is still rebellious enough to let a love-affair between him and Jack happen and let it continue for 20 years. Given his character and his crippling fears, this is almost a little wonder.
• We do have open plains, but no desert landscapes.
• No gunfights though, but at least a (kind of) fistfight between the two. And we have a kind of indirect gunfight: Jack missing the coyote, whereas Ennis shoots the coyote and hits the elk.

to me this movie is a love story not a western

To me, it's both.

[Penthesilea]

The German wikipedia lists more characteristics of non-classical Westerns, of which some are true for BBM:

- bigger (regarding screen-time and importance) roles for women
- critical attitude towards its heroes
- non-traditional sexuality

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, I also agree that BBM is largely a love story.  But, lots of westerns have a love story as, often a secondary, theme. 

In investigating the romantic possibilities between the pair of main cowboys (instead of a protagonist cowboy and a female character... who is almost always featured as a secondary character) BBM is tweaking this longstanding aspect of westerns I think.  Also, it's foregrounding a tension (attraction between the two main cowboys) that's usually just below the surface in traditional westerns.  I recall from an award ceremony (the Oscars maybe?) in consideration of BBM, they played a montage of old westerns where there are obvious sexual or romantic innuendos going on between the featured cowboys.  Does anyone else remember this montage? 

And, in making this a modern western... and in heavily highlighting things like rural poverty and the non-glamorous aspects of small-town living... BBM is certainly concerned with a kind of modern realism. 

[Penthesilea]

Del's point was that Marlboro man imitated the way men dressed in real life out west. and that is the simple truth...whether or not BBM conciously decided to imitate Marlboro or the original that the ad people copied is open to debate. I don't see how you could differentiate between copying the original or copying the copy.

I take pics at the rodeos and at reining competitions and team pennings...places where men that wear Carharts and western hats everyday as their clothes (not costumes) and they all hold their heads and themselves very similarly to how Ennis did. They all use that brim the way Ennis did to hide expression or avoid eye contact. Yes, the Marlboro man ads are carefully staged and costumed....to look like ranchers and cowboys...

You and Del have a very valid point here. Especially about the non-existing(?) difference between copying the original and copying the copy (like the way you put it, so simple and logical).

Yet I do think the depiction of Ennis has role models not only in real-life (like Richard Avadon's book), but also in art. I even think I can remember Ang Lee directly referring to the Marlboro Man and I think it was in the Charlie Rose interview. Does anyone know this for sure (or can falsify it)? Otherwise I'll check it and report back.

[Brown Eyes]

You and Del have a very valid point here. Especially about the non-existing(?) difference between copying the original and copying the copy (like the way you put it, so simple and logical).

Yet I do think the depiction of Ennis has role models not only in real-life (like Richard Avadon's book), but also in art. I even think I can remember Ang Lee directly referring to the Marlboro Man and I think it was in the Charlie Rose interview. Does anyone know this for sure (or can falsify it)? Otherwise I'll check it and report back.

I actually do think there's a difference between copying the original and copying a copy.  Because the copy has been layered with meaning beyond the original.


If there was any kind of concsious effort to evoke James Dean and something like the Marlboro Man... then the filmmakers are choosing particularly glamorous/handsome/appealing/sexy examples of the cowboy-image as a baseline for Ennis in addition to the more realistic image of a skinny, hard-living, perhaps-impoverished cowboy as suggested by the Avedon image.  These two contrasting ideas of the cowboy are combined in Ennis I think.

There are other types of cowboy images (very famous) that BBM seems to have avoided for the most part.  I'm thinking of famous old-time media cowboys like Gene Autry (as one quick example).

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3109701-028.jpg" border="0" />

Staying with the Marlboro Man, for example... the advertisers chose to use a baseline image of a rancher/cowboy (real people, observed in real life), but they chose the image of a rancher for a particular reason.  Perhaps wanting to show that their cigarettes are an attribute associated with a  glamorous form of masculinity. The men in these ads are always handsome, their clothing is often perfect and there's a uniformity in how they're posed. The advertisers know that cowboys are a component of fantasy for lots of men (not sexual necessarily)... the ideal of rugged, western living is, I think, a fantasy for lots of men (straight and gay) from the time they're little boys and this idolization is perpetuated in media. This fantasy doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of real ranchers' lives.  If this particular type of image was in mind for Ennis, then I think BBM is making a comment on complex social realities lurking beneath the surface of images of glamorous cowboys.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/2979998-d71.jpg" border="0" />

[LauraGigs]

If this particular type of image was in mind for Ennis, then I think BBM is making a comment on complex social realities lurking beneath the surface of images of glamorous cowboys.

Damn.  Your points (and Chrissi's) are fascinating and well-put.

[delalluvia]

Yes, I also agree that BBM is largely a love story.  But, lots of westerns have a love story as, often a secondary, theme. 

In investigating the romantic possibilities between the pair of main cowboys (instead of a protagonist cowboy and a female character... who is almost always featured as a secondary character) BBM is tweaking this longstanding aspect of westerns I think.  Also, it's foregrounding a tension (attraction between the two main cowboys) that's usually just below the surface in traditional westerns.  I recall from an award ceremony (the Oscars maybe?) in consideration of BBM, they played a montage of old westerns where there are obvious sexual or romantic innuendos going on between the featured cowboys.  Does anyone else remember this montage? 

And, in making this a modern western... and in heavily highlighting things like rural poverty and the non-glamorous aspects of small-town living... BBM is certainly concerned with a kind of modern realism. 

Yes, and I wish I had taped it.  I thought it was hilarious.  I wouldn't put too much stock in that montage without seeing the material it was taken from.  Too much was probably taken out of context.

I guess this topic is a bit confusing to me.  While Ang might have chosen cowboy icons to base BBM, he also depended a lot on realism.  So to me, having grown up in Texas and been around cowboys my whole life, I don't see that Ang did a whole lot of artistic stretching to dress BBM.  All he seems to have done - seeing that BBM is so amazingly realistic - is go to a western town and simply copy the people.  As one costume designer one time said about BBM, 'the "clothing" hasn't changed."  What cowboys were wearing in the '60s is what they're still wearing today.

[injest]

right, the outfits were what people wear/wore. so I think Lee was just being his usual careful meticulous self for recreating the era. I am going back to the quote about if you believe that pot then you believe the story. I think he was being very careful to present what IS/WAS to NOT distract from the story....to give us clues and aids to believe and buy into the story completely.....

[ifyoucantfixit]

          I dont usually participate in these discussions, but I felt compelled to make my
ideas known.  I think that the entire term cowboy is an iconic image.
          It deals with a person or persons that do certain things.  Mostly having to do with
riding a horse.  Tending stock, and spending a great deal of the daily chore out of doors.
If we are discussing Brokeback Mountain as a genre.  To me it fits completely on the side
of a western.  The time is not as we typically think of as  "western" in the past. 
The elements are all there however.  The hero, in this case there are two heros.  The protagonist.  In this case its not just one person.   Then society in general, is the antagonist.  Not just a single black hat baddie.  The leader of
that pack, as per the ones in the older "westerns" started as Aguirre.  He is also related
to the squeeler in the old westerns.  The one that give the hero a difficult task to perform.   Making the choices he has to employ in order to continue to live. Stopping a bad guy from hurting the innocent, or unprepared. and makes him feel
in danger.  From whatever source his danger derives.
            Just because it is written in the modern time, doesnt make it any less a "western."
The love story is an integral part of the movie, as in most "westerns it is."  It just so
happens that it is between two men.  Thus giving new impetus to the story.  The hero, and his love, fighting the inevitable foes that they encounter .  Wherether real or imagined, that is  the foe, nonetheless.
             As to the Marlboro Man or the James Dean characterization.  Giant was not in the
least a "western" in my opinion.  It was as Del mentioned more of an epic soap opera.
Dean's character drawing on the typical gear and outfit of the rancher and cowboy, as
norm in dress and demeaner of the men. Having little education, and little to call their own.
I believe the downfacing way has more to do with the kind of people that are and were
drawn to that life style.  The shy introverted type. The James Dean character that is shown on the movie cover, is totally different from the one in the beginning of the movie.  He was the very epitome of the Ennis we recognize.  But following the money making time he became rich, his personal look more polished and having a great deal of confidence.  He showed upward facing charisma.   I think that the advertising world knows
and understands the mystique of the legend and charisma of the "cowboy."  Every
little boy, and many little girls also want to be a cowboy.  They want a pony for Christmas.
Its an easy way to sell a product.  Starting im sure with the popularity of the so called
"cowboy movies."  People wanted to be one.  Wanted to feel that they are living a
romantic iconic life instead of being a clerk, or a bean counter.  Therefor they could lose
themself if only for a time, inside the darkened room.  Pretend and be a cowboy.  I think its basically the chicken or the egg question.  I personally think the man, the gear, and clothing came because of the convenience of it to the job they did.  Plus the funds that they could use.   Then the Marlboro Man or some other advertisement took advantage, and
romanticised that visual.  Then used it to sell a product.  We would have to then ask
Heath where or not he used those as his prototypes...I believe he did to a great extent.
I think Ang Lee also made that his choice in the Ennis confine as well.

[delalluvia]

We would have to then ask Heath where or not he used those as his prototypes...I believe he did to a great extent.  I think Ang Lee also made that his choice in the Ennis confine as well.

I believe Heath said he based his Ennis on the cowboys he had seen in Australia.