Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay
sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
injest:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on March 11, 2008, 10:18:26 am ---And there's also the fact that neither Jack nor Ennis thought much of their spouses, they were there mostly for convenience sake. Ennis thought of Alma much the way he considered any other piece a livestock. Jack "ain't never gave it much thought," he was happy with "doing it over the phone." Can you blame them? Both Alma and Lureen roped in their mates and used Jack and Ennis in their own ways too.
--- End quote ---
how did Alma and Lureen 'use' them in their own way? I mean in the short story and the movie, not the conjecture of the Open Forum threads. It was a bad situation but I don't blame the women. Jack and Ennis were the ones that went outside their marriages. Neither woman did anything that can even remotely be considered underhanded.
Front-Ranger:
I don't "blame" the women and I don't think they did anything "underhanded" but I do think they used the men and the relationship. Alma expected Ennis to bring home enough money for the whole family to live on. She said (and at a very vulnerable time) "I'd have em (children) if you'd support em."
Lureen actively pursued Jack and singled him out as her mate, and then seduced him in the back seat of her car. He neither wanted to marry nor have children.
injest:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on March 11, 2008, 10:35:12 am ---I don't "blame" the women and I don't think they did anything "underhanded" but I do think they used the men and the relationship. Alma expected Ennis to bring home enough money for the whole family to live on. She said (and at a very vulnerable time) "I'd have em (children) if you'd support em."
Lureen actively pursued Jack and singled him out as her mate, and then seduced him in the back seat of her car. He neither wanted to marry nor have children.
--- End quote ---
you say you dont' blame them then you portray their actions in a bad light. Ennis was screwing another man and quitting jobs constantly to be with that man, that affected their family, Alma MORE than had reason to ask Ennis to wear protection.
and when did it become 'using' someone to like them and seduce them? as far as she knew Jack was available. Jack could have said no. He was a big boy. I dont' see him as being that weak, he made a CHOICE to get married and have kids.
Brown Eyes:
Well, if you look at marriage in the most cynical way possible, as an institution without actually looking at the emotional components of marriage... it is a contract (a patriarchal contract) in which both parties use each other for various reasons. It was set up originally to be about exchanging and securing property... and to produce male heirs for the patriarchal line.
So, there's a way in which Alma and Lureen certainly used Ennis and Jack (and vice versa) based on the conventional expectations that surround marriage. Alma expected Ennis to provide money for her and the children (there's nothing natural about that assumption... it's a conventionally based assumption about what a husband "should" do within the contract of a conventional marriage).
Yes, Jack did make a choice to marry Lureen... but it seems to be more about resignation than enthusiasm on his part. And, in a cynical way, it also seems to be about his interest in financial security via the Newsomes.
injest:
--- Quote from: atz75 on March 11, 2008, 10:46:29 am ---Well, if you look at marriage in the most cynical way possible, as an institution without actually looking at the emotional components of marriage... it is a contract (a patriarchal contract) in which both parties use each other for various reasons. It was set up originally to be about exchanging and securing property... and to produce male heirs for the patriarchal line.
So, there's a way in which Alma and Lureen certainly used Ennis and Jack (and vice versa) based on the conventional expectations that surround marriage. Alma expected Ennis to provide money for her and the children (there's nothing natural about that assumption... it's a conventionally based assumption about what a husband "should" do within the contract of a conventional marriage).
Yes, Jack did make a choice to marry Lureen... but it seems to be more about resignation than enthusiasm on his part. And, in a cynical way, it also seems to be about his interest in financial security via the Newsomes.
--- End quote ---
yes that is a cynical view.
and in view of that why would it NOT be natural for Alma to expect Ennis to provide his part of the 'contract'?? She pumped out the kids, he was supposed to provide. This is the 1960s not yesterday.
Because we like Ennis and are sympathetic to his plight does not make him a saint or his actions less wrong.
and you point out quite well that Jack was a gold digger.
those women very much got screwed....
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