Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
"Ennis...girls don't fall in love with fun!"
welliwont:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 10, 2006, 12:36:02 pm ---Eventually, she might have become frustrated by Ennis' lack of passion, in both a physical and emotional sense. But I think at that point their relationship was new enough that frustration hadn't set in, and she probably hoped the potential still existed.
--- End quote ---
Hi Katherine:
"their relationship was new enough"? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I calculate their relationship as being for five years by 1983. Based on the linear progression: Cassie hits on Ennis the scene immediately prior to the Benefit Dance where Jack meets Randall, and the banner at the Benefit Dance says 1978.
This is the reason I came down so hard on Ennis in my two postings earlier tonight on another thread, http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2163.0.
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on June 10, 2006, 08:38:19 pm ---
.... Ennis stopped seeing Cassie after their last fishing trip supports your hypothesis. I do however have a problem with the way that was done. According to the timeline, Ennis began to see Cassie in 1978, and stopped seeing her in 1983. Five years, damn! For a woman to be dumped so unceremoniously after being in a relationship for five f---n' years just boggles the mind. Cassie says she left messages and notes, and then moved on to Carl. Sheesh, after five years, I think a face-to-face encounter with Ennis would be absolutely necessary to Cassie. How could she just accept this silent brush-off after five f'n years??
PS: I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person. My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man. Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”
Sorry to all the Heathens! *ducks into the tent just before the barrage*
--- End quote ---
Sorry Katherine, I know you are a Heathen!
and To Jeff: sometimes women choose men that are not good for them, this is the condensed theory, but some women are unconciously drawn to men that are similar to their father's personality. If Cassie's father had been emotionally distant and unavailable to her or to her mother, that is what Cassie models for her own choice of a mate. I know that is what I did, I chose someone emtionallly distant, just like my own father was.
whiteoutofthemoon:
"PS: I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person. My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man. Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”
Ennis is a gentleman, decent and noble to the core, and that's why it was such an internal struggle for him to have feelings for Jack, not only because he didn't understand it and had fears, but also because he had committments to Alma, and especially his children. It may look like he was "leading on" CASSIE (corrected), and perhaps the way he blew her off was cold, but that again is part of the tragedy....in that diner scene, you can hear in his voice that he was just empty, and as much as he may have wanted to do the right thing in regards to Cassie, he had lost the emotional capability to do so.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: whiteoutofthemoon on June 11, 2006, 01:09:56 am ---"PS: I like BBM as much as the next Brokie, but if I take two steps back and process the narcissistic way Ennis treated Cassie, that makes Ennis a Bad Person. My mantra, courtesy of Ann Landers is “The true measure of a human is how he or she treats his fellow man. Integrity and compassion cannot be learned in college, nor are these qualities inherited in the genes.”
Ennis is a gentleman, decent and noble to the core, and that's why it was such an internal struggle for him to have feelings for Jack, not only because he didn't understand it and had fears, but also because he had committments to Alma, and especially his children. It may look like he was "leading on" Alma, and perhaps the way he blew her off was cold, but that again is part of the tragedy....in that diner scene, you can hear in his voice that he was just empty, and as much as he may have wanted to do the right thing in regards to Cassie, he had lost the emotional capability to do so.
--- End quote ---
Whiteoutofthemoon, I agree with you.
On the other hand, JakeTwist, I totally disagree with Ann Landers, but I should probably save that for the Ann Landers message board. (Briefly, though, I think those qualities most certainly can be inherited in the genes, and probably even learned in college -- at college age, anyway, if not in an actual classroom.)
I think Ennis was probably fine to Cassie, aside from leading her on out of some mixture of passivity and his own fears -- at least until the end, when he broke up with her in an unquestionably cruel way. Also, the actual decision to break up with her -- if not the method -- may have been motivated at least partly by kindness. But when I said politeness, etc., were among his attractive qualities, I was referring more to his manner at the very beginning, when she was still serving him beers and decided to hit on him.
And Jake, you are much more observant than I am. I guess I never noticed the banner and calculated the years. I always just figured both the Cassie and Randall relationships hadn't been going on long before Ennis and Jack talked about them. I guess I might have thought Ennis, especially, would have mentioned the good-looking little gal he was putting the blocks to earlier. (With Jack, I guess it would make sense he'd been seeing Randall for a while before he obliquely confessed to Ennis. But he'd only mentioned Randall to his dad that spring.)
And Jeff, I agree that Cassie's Carl line was partly a slap at Ennis, but as she said it while rolling her eyes and making a face and immediately after, "Who, Carl?!?" it was also meant to indicate how little he (Carl) interested her.
--- Quote from: JakeTwist on June 10, 2006, 09:56:28 pm ---Sorry Katherine, I know you are a Heathen!
--- End quote ---
What, have I mentioned this before?! ::) ;)
welliwont:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 11, 2006, 02:33:13 am ---I guess I never noticed the banner and calculated the years. I always just figured both the Cassie and Randall relationships hadn't been going on long before Ennis and Jack talked about them. I guess I might have thought Ennis, especially, would have mentioned the good-looking little gal he was putting the blocks to earlier. (With Jack, I guess it would make sense he'd been seeing Randall for a while before he obliquely confessed to Ennis. But he'd only mentioned Randall to his dad that spring.)
--- End quote ---
Yeah, me too. I'm not so sure that it's not a continuity error or something.... I was totally surprised when I calculated that it was five years! It did not "feel" like five years in the way that Cassie accepted the lackadaisacal flavor of their relationship, I mean to stick around for that long in such a seemingly casual relationship, and to have moved on to Carl with no real closure from Ennis, y'know what I'm trying to say? (It's late!)
And yes you are right, you'd think that Ennis might have mentioned Cassie to Jack if he'd been seeing her for five years! I mean, surely they must have talked a bit to each other on their get-aways?!!
If Ang had put the scene of Cassie picking up Ennis after the 1978 scene of Jack meeting Randall at the Charity Benefit, then it might have been way less than five years that Cassie was seeing Ennis, and that would have felt more realistic.
serious crayons:
The more I think of it and, having looked at the screenplay (for the first time!), the more the whole date thing toward the end is odd.
According to the screenplay, the charity dance takes place in 1978, as the sign indicates. And when Ennis and Cassie pick Alma Jr. up for a date, she appears younger than she does at the end. Which makes Ennis belated revelation about Cassie odd, for the reasons we mentioned, under any circumstances.
But also, in the screenplay the big lakeside argument is in 1981. As is the pie-eating scene. But the scene where Ennis gets the DECEASED postcard is said to happen in 1982. How would that work? Didn't the argument occur early in the year that Ennis said he couldn't meet until November -- and then didn't Ennis' message on the fatal postcard confirm that November meeting? Or if not, does this imply there were other meetings between the big argument and Jack's death?! This doesn't seem realistic.
Sorry, but unless I'm figuring wrong, this seems like a mistake. Feel free to correct me if necessary.
The last scene, with Alma Jr., is said to occur in 1984. Hunh?! It doesn't seem that much later than the previous action. I guess this is more arguable, but Ennis' grief seems really fresh.
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