Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll

[MaineWriter]

Gee whiz!

I post a LJ comment and go to bed and everyone discusses it, there and here, and I wake up in the morning with the chance to pick up the pieces.

To clarify my opinion on Brad Sevigny...Ranchgal wrote that he is "disgusting" and I commented that I didn't think he was "disgusting." Despite all the comments to the contrary, I still don't. Maybe Louise didn't write him strongly enough to be disgusting in my eyes, who knows. Maybe it is my view of the world where there are very few blacks and whites and lots and lots of shades of gray, and Brad is out there in gray-land somewhere. Whatever. As a character, I still have some sympathy for him, even though what he has done is very wrong.

I guess part of my sympathy comes from the fact that he is gay and his bad decisions stem from that. He is trying to find his way in a world which is known (even in 2006) to be hostile to "his kind" and the fact that he reacts in anger is not too surprising. Couple that anger with a sociopathic personality and obviously we have a recipe for disaster. Even so, I still don't find him a 100% unlikeable character.

Brad was disowned by his father because he is gay and made the decision to change his name and cut all ties with his family. (Obviously he didn't though, since he talks to his brother.) When Ellery heard this, he made the comment, "I am glad my daddy wasn't alive to see my heart get broken by another man." Ellery, who comes across as the most well-adjusted gay guy in the entire story, has a place of vulnerability and insecurity about being gay. I guess realizing this about Ellery made me unable to totally hate Brad,  if that makes any sense at all.

My 2 cents.

L

[louisev]

One of the things I try to do, even when I am writing a "cops and robbers" situation, is to portray people not as black and white, but as varying shades of grey.  In other words, we have people who are "a little selfish" (i.e. Wayne), and "a little mean"  (i.e. Leon), and then there are those who are a little more selfish (Lang) and a little more mean (Wilson Brand), all the way up to the super ultra mean Worrell and Daddy Worrell and of course the ultra mean bad guy Amos Marigold, about whom very few people would ever feel any sympathy, ladies' underwear aside.

One of the reasons I created the characters of Brad Sevigny and Justin Worrell is to make sure that I don't portray all the "gays" as synonymous with "good" because that really has never been true and I don't want to give anyone the idea that just because someone is gay does not make them automatically one of the heroes, and that the straight guys aren't all mean and evil.  So I mixed up the evil guys and the good guys so that we have shades of evil and shades of good among all of them.  Sevigny is meant to be ambiguously sociopathic.  The problem with such people is that they are more ill than evil, and even to this day, there is very little anyone can do to help them with their self-created problems.

[ranchgal]

One of the things I try to do, even when I am writing a "cops and robbers" situation, is to portray people not as black and white, but as varying shades of grey.  In other words, we have people who are "a little selfish" (i.e. Wayne), and "a little mean"  (i.e. Leon), and then there are those who are a little more selfish (Lang) and a little more mean (Wilson Brand), all the way up to the super ultra mean Worrell and Daddy Worrell and of course the ultra mean bad guy Amos Marigold, about whom very few people would ever feel any sympathy, ladies' underwear aside.

One of the reasons I created the characters of Brad Sevigny and Justin Worrell is to make sure that I don't portray all the "gays" as synonymous with "good" because that really has never been true and I don't want to give anyone the idea that just because someone is gay does not make them automatically one of the heroes, and that the straight guys aren't all mean and evil.  So I mixed up the evil guys and the good guys so that we have shades of evil and shades of good among all of them.  Sevigny is meant to be ambiguously sociopathic.  The problem with such people is that they are more ill than evil, and even to this day, there is very little anyone can do to help them with their self-created problems.

I agree with this Louise, every demographic has people of every kind in it, and your writing relflects that-and that is good.  Cause most people tend to be grey depending on the day and situation, good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things.
Giving Brad extra sympathy or consideration because he is gay-puts him to a different standard than any other person who did what he did.  I don't agree with that any where. I think he is perfectly aware of what he did and is doing, and that doesn't deserve anything more than anyone else who hurts other people. Being gay isn't an excuse or at least it shouldn't be.   he may well have had a fall out with some of his family, but they certainly didn't abandon him completely-as they are still giving him money, and he still talks to some of them.  Maybe he left them more than they left him.

[MaineWriter]

I agree with this Louise, every demographic has people of every kind in it, and your writing relflects that-and that is good.  Cause most people tend to be grey depending on the day and situation, good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things.
Giving Brad extra sympathy or consideration because he is gay-puts him to a different standard than any other person who did what he did.  I don't agree with that any where. I think he is perfectly aware of what he did and is doing, and that doesn't deserve anything more than anyone else who hurts other people. Being gay isn't an excuse or at least it shouldn't be.   he may well have had a fall out with some of his family, but they certainly didn't abandon him completely-as they are still giving him money, and he still talks to some of them.  Maybe he left them more than they left him.

I don't consider giving Brad sympathy or consideration because he is gay to be a "different standard" than any other person. I am considering the situation, context, and person. Like I said, to me there is lots of gray and ambiguity surrounding him, especially since we don't know the full details of his life, family, and so on. All of these influences shape who we are as people and the choices we make...and Brad made choices.

Ranchgal, obviously we don't see eye to eye on this, and that's fine. This isn't the first thing we have disagreed on (nipple piercing comes to mind...)

Leslie

[Lumière]

MagicM ~ I love that ballad! 

Dee ~ Love the cat!! 

Louise ~ I hope you are feeling much better today!  Take it easy and get plenty of rest, rest, rest!! 

Lucise - can the cat and the ballad go in the gallery somewhere?  and will people post here when there are gallery updates? Gracias.

Kelly - I am sure the cat and the ballad will find their way into the gallery .. definitely!
Any comments for the gallery can be posted there for sure, although suggestions for characters/props, etc can be made here and I'll eventually add them to the Gallery!

[melissasjack]

Never posted here before...
Just my 2 cents that I had to put in...
Brokeback mountain is about a joyous celebration and a sorrowful mourning of the love between Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar....
Notice how I said BETWEEN JACK & ENNIS.
BBM is not about Ennis and so & so,
Jack & Ennis, forever.
Period.
Anything else in a DESECRATION OF THEIR love.
It was about LOVE.
Jack Twist, the sweetest man there is, and his aching Ennis who would only ever love his Jack. Thats it.
Thank you.

Edited for language -Roland

[louisev]

Louise ~ I hope you are feeling much better today!  Take it easy and get plenty of rest, rest, rest!! 

errr... errrr... ok all you worry-wart types... so I just got home at the godawful hour of 8:10 p.m. after the stores closed, which means I couldn't refill on cough drops and tissues and food....after a 10 1/2 hour day....   but the good news is, I think it must be only a cold.

[JennyC]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and view of BBM and what may happen after the end of the story.  We all read the story and try to finish the story based on our own experiences and attitude.  One person’s view does not validate or invalidate the feelings of others (this goes both ways whether you believe Ennis would only ever love Jack or he could have a second chance of love with someone else).  Just as many of my friends don’t get BBM, I think it’s perfectly understandable that some people don’t get the story between Ennis and Ellery.  How a story impacts a person is still a mystery to me...  However, if people think the story of Ennis and Ellery is only about sex and not about love.  Then sadly and respectfully, I have to say I disagree and think that’s wrong.

[opinionista]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and view of BBM and what may happen after the end of the story.  We all read the story and try to finish the story based on our own experiences and attitude.  One person’s view does not validate or invalidate the feelings of others (this goes both ways whether you believe Ennis would only ever love Jack or he could have a second chance of love with someone else).  Just as many of my friends don’t get BBM, I think it’s perfectly understandable that some people don’t get the story between Ennis and Ellery.  How a story impacts a person is still a mystery to me...  However, if people think the story of Ennis and Ellery is only about sex and not about love.  Then sadly and respectfully, I have to say I disagree and think that’s wrong.

I agree.

[JennyC]

errr... errrr... ok all you worry-wart types... so I just got home at the godawful hour of 8:10 p.m. after the stores closed, which means I couldn't refill on cough drops and tissues and food....after a 10 1/2 hour day....   but the good news is, I think it must be only a cold.

Louise, I am glad to hear that it's only a cold.  Hope you will be feeling better soon.  Don’t rush with writing, and only do that if that cheers you up.  I have started to go back and re-read the whole story.