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Jack's questionnaire
serious crayons:
It sure is a measure of the power of the movie that when we aren't busy agonizing over the actual tragic ending, we're agonizing over the equally tragic alternate ending that might have occurred if the actual tragic ending hadn't.
Whenever an ambiguous Brokeback situation presents more than one possible plausible interpretation, my longtime policy has always been to always pick the least depressing one. I figure there's enough undeniable sadness here already, so in the case of uncertainty I can treat myself to a happy view as long as it's a reasonably believable fit in the story.
But however you interpret it, there's no good way out of this.
1) Jack decides to quit unless Ennis changes, Ennis can't change, so they would have been quitsville in November, but then Jack dies. :'(
2) Jack decides to quit unless Ennis changes, meanwhile Ennis resolves to change, so they would have been happy in November, but then Jack dies. :'(
3) Jack resigns himself to sticking it out, Ennis has no intention of changing, so from November on they would have stayed status quo indefinitely, but then Jack dies. :'(
4) Jack decides to quit unless Ennis changes, meanwhile Ennis resolves to change, then Jack dies. But wait! Turns out Jack faked his own death to teach Ennis a lesson and escape Lureen, he shows up in November, and they live happily ever after!! :D
Ordinarily, my policy would lead me to choose 4, but unfortunately there's that darn believability clause. So that one's out. No. 3 is plausible but not very exciting and ends just as sadly, so guess I'll eliminate that one, too. That leaves 1 and 2. Which is least depressing? It's a tough call. But in 2 at least the alternate-alternate ending (the parallel universe one where Jack doesn't die) would have been happy, unlike 1. And even with Jack dying, 2 leaves a tiny shred of hope for Ennis. It's even sadder in the short run, full of classic tragic bitter irony, but at least it ensures he has learned something about the importance of love over homophobia. So maybe just maybe he could be happier in the long run. So I pick 2.
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 11, 2006, 05:10:55 pm --- He *has* changed after the lakeside scene, to me the Cassie scene shows that very clearly. He seems to have reached a point where pretending to be straight just isn't worth any sort of effort any more, but he doesn't look like a guy with a purpose....... in both the Cassie scene and at the beginning of the scene where he collects the mail he looks like someone defeated and cowed by life, almost.
--- End quote ---
I agree that dumping Cassie scene shows he's stopped pretending to be straight. Still, he's really glum. He told Jack at the lake he can't stand it no more, which according to his axiom means he has to look at fixing it. But how? Then Cassie tells him, "Girls don't fall in love with fun." Suddenly, he quits eating pie, looks up with an expression of realization. He more or less ignores Cassie and Carl's departure and gazes off into the distance, pondering. What?
I believe that line triggers some kind of epiphany. I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think I have seen Ruthlessly present a view of this, don't know that I fully agree with it, but I'd like to see it again. In any case, that's the clue that Ennis has decided to change. And unlike Mikaela, my impression is that he comes out of the post office looking all perky (well, faintly perky). It's hard to tell, it could go either way, but (my policy! and the logic that suggests he figured out something good in his epiphany) I choose upbeat.
So two seconds of upbeat, anyway, 'til he sees the postcard.
Brown Eyes:
Yeah, I think this movie is a lot about the slow and gradual evolution of Ennis... up until the lake argument/ Cassie+pie+bus station scene/ Jack's death... then it's about the massive, whiplash, epiphany-driven evolution of Ennis. The tragedy that we all worry about (or an underlying component of the main tragedy, which is Jack's death) is that Ennis has changed enough by the time he sends the November postcard that things really, truly might have started to get better with Jack. The tragedy is that this critical moment in the progress of his slow evolution has come almost a split second too late. Maybe Ennis really had almost found the handle on the coffeepot. And, poor Jack didn't even know that he sent the simple postcard!
:'(
I don't think Jack explicitly quit on Ennis. We may worry about what's going on in his head on this topic, but he clearly didn't say this or really indicate this to Ennis. I don't think Ennis would have written the November postcard if he believed Jack had quit him... or if Jack actually said he wanted to break up. If, following the argument scene - culminating in a hypothetical break up - Ennis still truly wanted Jack back (after the Cassie conversation) he would have had to do something much more dramatic than send a very simple postcard saying "how about Pine Creek in November?" (or whatever it actually says). He might have found himself having to fight a little harder to get him back. I think the casualness of the postcard shows that he's expecting that things really are torqued back to the status quo (at least in terms of their regular camping dates).
:-\
Mikaela:
--- Quote ---ALL of these have turned into marathon typing / reading endeavors.
--- End quote ---
Ain't that the truth! :laugh:
--- Quote ---Generally, I like this. While reading it the first time, I thought that, yes, in a spiritual, symbolic, subtextual sense we, the viewers, can see this as what's happened... but not that Mrs. Twist actually had it in her mind to put Ennis to the test. But then, I agree that her standing, clutching her cup gives good support for the idea of testing Ennis. You have made a very strong point of a classical allusion here, but I still can't quite get over the "what she knew," "what she did," "what she expected" mess. As far as something that we can see as symbolism -- Ennis put to the test -- I think it's great. But the actual participation of the Mrs. Twist character on the textual level... how many mothers would rely on the intervention of the fates as opposed to just laying the shirts on the bed for him to find? If they're significant, he'll pick them up.
--- End quote ---
Not many mothers, I'd say - but Mrs. Twist isn't just *any* mother - look at the son she managed to raise, against the odds of poverty and a horribly mean husband out in the middle of nowhere! ;)
I do agree that her planning this at length seems a bit far-fetched - but I still fully think the "testing of love" is what is going on there. Perhaps partly on a sub-conscious level on Mrs Twist's part. The symbolism and its message work so well for me, I'm not letting it go.
**Hugs the symbolism tight**
--- Quote ---Wow was I surprised. [ ] You can't know the flack I've taken over my admittedly very strong, no middle-ground, stance on this question. It all goes to how the word "quit" is defined.
--- End quote ---
You've taken flak over this? **looks around nervously** ;)
I can't recall whether I've voiced my opinion here or just on LJ, but I have voiced it before. I don't think I've ever equated "quit" with "stop loving" - but with "leave" or "set free" or "stop seeing". And those are not the same at all IMO. I wouldn't mind a thread about this, but if you think it'll just attract flak and anger then maybe not. I've seen other Jack-related discussions elsewhere that have gotten very, very emotional and filled with hurt. Wouldn't want to cause that.
I love Jack (and Ennis, equally) and one reason for that is that I completely believe in their commitment and deep love for one another, and yet think of them as complete and complex *humans*. And humans are, - well, human. With all that entails. Neither of them is perfect. Both show uncommon strength and tenacity. If Jack had decided to "quit" Ennis after November, it would be on the basis of that strength - the strength of his love.
--- Quote ---So two seconds of upbeat, anyway, 'til he sees the postcard.
--- End quote ---
Waaaaaaaaaah! :'( And that is the most positive believable alternative.... This film really is tough on the heart.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 11, 2006, 03:32:13 pm ---You can't know the flack I've taken over my admittedly very strong, no middle-ground, stance on this question. It all goes to how the word "quit" is defined. I've always felt that to define "quit" as "stop loving" is way too simplistic.
--- End quote ---
You know, I've thought some more about this. I still have a lot of respect for your idea, Ruthlessly; it makes plenty of sense. And I don't want to add to the flak, or even necessarily reject the theory. But I do have a few other thoughts I'd like to throw out.
I know I have resisted this scenario when I've seen it presented in the past, but at first I couldn't remember why. After all, Jack died anyway, without ever actually quitting Ennis, so what difference does it make? And if he hadn't died, Ennis would have had a chance to change his ways and save the relationship, which I like to think he would have done, so fine. What's the problem?
Then I realized I was thinking too pragmatically, and remembered what I found hard to take -- emotionally -- the first time I came across this idea. It has nothing to do with confusion between "quit" and "stop loving." It's that I don't want Jack to die knowing he was planning to end it with Ennis. I don't want to think that his last earthly thoughts of Ennis and their relationshp would have involved not just frustration but outright despair and heartbreak, or -- worse -- the firm resolution to put Ennis in the past. That turns the already excessive sadness up a notch further. That's why the romantic optimist part of me reflexively resists this scenario.
Meanwhile, I have a couple of more practical qualms. Your argument is that quitting would be the kind thing for Jack to do, a favor motivated by love. But even if Jack believed quitting was best for Ennis, that doesn't necessarily mean he could bear to make the sacrifice. (Which he might find harder than the sacrifices he's already made to stick with Ennis.)
--- Quote --- If Jack did not “quit” Ennis ... I mean let Ennis go for Ennis’ well-being – then he never had any love at all for Ennis.
--- End quote ---
This is too strong for me. Maybe love can be a little selfish, and maybe Jack's longing would outweigh his selflessness. (Why do I find this selfish-love concept more appealing than its opposite? I don't know, but somehow in this case I do.)
Also, maybe Jack didn't take Ennis' collapse literally. I know I didn't. It's your fault I'm like this ... I'm nothin, nowhere ... I don't hear those as literal descriptions of Ennis' viewpoint, and maybe Jack wouldn't either (the same way he doesn't take it seriously when Ennis says "get the fuck off me"). If your theory partly depends on Jack concluding that because the relationship is tearing Ennis apart Ennis would be better off alone, I don't know that I agree either that the underlying assumption is correct or that Jack assumed it. If Ennis can't stand it no more being in a relationship with Jack, I can't begin to tell you how bad he'd feel if Jack broke it off. A huge sense of freedom and relief? Of course not. I believe his heartbreak would far outweigh the stress caused by the 20-year balancing act. I think it's possible that Jack believes this, too.
When Ennis contradicts his own motto and says he can't stand this no more, some people hear him saying he wants to get out of the situation. But I (and maybe Jack!) hear him saying he wants to fix the situation.
As I said, these conjectures don't disprove your theory. I am tempted by them because they make me feel a little better. Ruthlessly, I also think we differ partly because we have different ideas about the nature and effects of Ennis' homophobia. But I don't really have a strong, no middle ground stance. I'm also open to the possibility that this is right.
Mikaela:
I'll let Ruthlessly respond to your comments, of course, but will just throw in a couple of very quick comments before I hasten onwards to work:
--- Quote ---But even if Jack believed quitting was best for Ennis, that doesn't necessarily mean he could bear to make the sacrifice.
--- End quote ---
To me, to the way I see their lakeside scene, this *is* the crucial Jack-question about what would have happened in November. *Could* he have managed to quit, if Enis didnt't show signs of managing and wanting to change? Jack isn't sure himself, obviously - he even gives us the (in)famous "wish I knew how to" line. His expression in the last scene he appears, Lureen's description of his drinking.....no, he isn't sure. And all of this, the prospect of leaving his love, knowing how Ennis will take it too- is wearing him completely down. It would be the hardest thing he'd ever done, if he managed to do it at all. I think he would have managed it. Love is a strong motivator for Jack in all cases, and now he's realized that Ennis is hurting as much as he himself is. (Just as - to me - the crucial Ennis question lingering after that scene is; would he managed to start fixing it when he couldn't stand it any more? Ie. would he manage to change? In neither's case is there any doubt in my mind at all that they still love each other as fiercely as ever.)
--- Quote ---When Ennis contradicts his own motto and says he can't stand this no more, some people hear him saying he wants to get out of the situation. But I (and maybe Jack!) hear him saying he wants to fix the situation.
--- End quote ---
That's what I hear him say. That he wants to fix it, I mean. What I think we are supposed to hear, even - the parallell to his previous "stand it" line being intentional IMO. Or at least, I want him to come away with the dawning realization that he wants to fix it. That there's no other way than fixing it. Jack is his life, and he can't, won't ever want to get out of the "situation" with him. But fix it in what way? The Cassie scene shows him stumped at what to do, IMO. He doesn't at all know how to fix it. I like to think you're right that a light bulb goes off over his head when he talks to Cassie and that he is perkier in the mail-collecting scene, that he's in fact on the track to fixing it, because yeah,- among the various heartbreaking scenarios that could surround Jack's death, I want to think that Ennis had overcome his obstacles enough that he was ready to give that "sweet life" a try at last.
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