Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship? -- by starboard

[TOoP/Bruce]

Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Rontrigger (Thu Mar 2 2006 00:56:45 )   

Being so emotionally caught up in BBM, I'm always looking for something that might have directed the storyline away from the sad ending that I think most of us long not to see, even if we know it just wouldn't be the same story. I think I may have found it.

It's when Jack failed to think clearly about Ennis's message informing him of the divorce. His subsequent actions were nothing less than disastrous.

It's clear to me that the post-divorce Jack/Ennis scene took place in the spring of 1976.

In the courtroom scene, the divorce is granted November 6, 1975. Since this was almost surely an interlocutory decree (the parties are no longer considered married but cannot immediately remarry to others), it would be several weeks or months before the final decree took effect. Depending on what Ennis's lawyer advised him regarding the legal niceties, Ennis probably didn't send the card to Jack informing him of the divorce until after the first of the year. Assuming Jack took off at the first opportunity after receiving the card and noting (always important in these deductions) that there was no snow on the ground, it must have been the following spring.

By that time, Jack and Ennis had known each other for almost 13 years and had been in regular contact for the last eight-and-a-half of those years.

Oh, Jack...you should have known better.

As I said on another thread some time ago, Ennis did NOT like surprises. What could have made Jack think that even if Ennis was now willing to make a life with him after the divorce, that Ennis would be thrilled by an unannounced visit? If Jack hadn't been so blinded by love, he would have taken at least the minimal precaution of writing back first.

And there should have been other warning signals. It took some other posters to point out to me--gently--that I had overlooked Ennis's paranoia in imagining their getting together at Ennis's house before their "fishing trips." After the reunion kiss and the night in the motel, Ennis seems to have been determined never to overrule his instincts again and avoided ever again being seen with Jack in public.

It's astounding that Jack never once thought--"Ennis will still want us to be careful." Showing up at Ennis's place--and in daylight? Asking "10 different people in Riverton" where Ennis had moved to--and telling Ennis that he had done so?

On top of all this, as someone else asked, what did Jack tell Lureen about this trip? He certainly had to let her know in advance whenever he went to Wyoming; his job with her father depended on his reliability. And he was going to visit Ennis the next month anyway--so how did he explain this spur-of-the-moment trip?

Did he tell Lureen he was leaving her? What reason would he have given--the truth? That doesn't seem likely--if so, when he came back with his tail between his legs, she almost certainly would have told him to get lost. Perhaps he started an argument with her, just said he was walking out, then came back after the side trip to Mexico and begged her forgiveness? (That I could imagine.) Or perhaps a feigned business trip? (Might have been tough to pull off, unless Jack had authority to seek out customers on his own.)

I'm so glad we never saw what Jack had in the back of the truck. If he had brought more than a few items--enough baggage to move in permanently with Ennis--that would have been more heartbreaking to me than almost any other moment in their relationship. Let's assume it was just enough "for now" and that he'd have sent for the rest of his things later.

What should Jack have done? Easy--he should have waited for the planned trip just a month later. So many things would have been different.

Alone together, they would have been able to discuss the situation. Ennis would not have had the attack of paranoia triggered by Jack's arrival and reinforced by the knowledge that Jack had made his presence known to others. (Jack knew very well what Ennis was thinking about that passing white truck--clearly it was a major contribution to the hurt he felt.) Jack would have been able to point out to Ennis that he'd always claimed the marriage made it impossible for them to be together, and that that obstacle no longer existed.

I can even imagine something like this happening--Ennis reminds Jack of Earl's murder, and Jack tells him that Aguirre saw them and did nothing about it. This is where Jack could say, "I know we have to be careful. But it can be done." I doubt that Jack ever saw this exact same opportunity on their other trips--to back up his ideas on how they could be together.

Even so, Ennis probably wouldn't have been convinced. They'd have "torqued it back almost the way it was," and Jack would have continued to come back to Wyoming for the next seven years for the same kind of encounters we're all familiar with. Or perhaps they'd have said the same things they eventually did in the lake scene, the relationship would have ended then and there, and Jack would have gone to Mexico anyway.

Or maybe not. Does anyone else think that Jack went to Mexico solely out of hurt and frustration? Is anyone else sure that the visit to Juarez we see was his first? (I don't see anything happening before Ennis's rejection that would have sent Jack on such a trip--remember, until then, Jack was clinging to hope.)

If Jack had never felt the need for a side trip to Mexico in the spring of 1976, the bitterness might have taken a much longer time to develop. At any rate, the lack of the unexpected and disillusioning scene at Ennis's house might have delayed the death of Jack's soul--one of the greatest tragedies within the tragedy that is BBM.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - kelda_shelton (Thu Mar 2 2006 01:05:13 )   

I took it that this was his first trip to Mexico, because he was so upset about Ennis, but certainly not his last.

Interesting thoughts. and you're right I'm so glad we never saw what Jack had in the back of the truck. This would have made this scene even more sad.

Not got time to write more, but you raise some good points.



BBM-aholic & proud of it! See.. www.spreadshirt.com/shop.php?sid=25107

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - RobertPlant (Thu Mar 2 2006 02:50:52 )   

Ennis probably didn't send the card to Jack informing him of the divorce until after the first of the year. Assuming Jack took off at the first opportunity after receiving the card


Yes, I think that Ennis sends the card some months after that november 6 and that Jack goes to Ennis right after receiving his card. He says two times something like "I caught your message/call (?don't know if I heard well) about the divorce" etc.

Jack misunderstands the message because it's unusual for Ennis to send cards not referring to their meetings. Jack thinks that if Ennis sent that card, the only reason is that he wanted see him.

I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - vkm91941 (Thu Mar 2 2006 02:56:52 )   
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Another clue that it took Ennis a while to send the postcard..it snows in Wyoming in late November usually and doesn't begin to thaw until late March early April. There is no snow on the ground when we see Jack headed up the road
to Ennis's place.

Victoria M
Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - austendw (Thu Mar 2 2006 05:29:33 )   

Ron, don't know if it's of any relevance, but the February 2003 screenplay specified that the card Jack received said "Divorce final. E." and then:
JACK: (excited, holds up the postcard) Got your message 'bout the divorce.

ENNIS considers a moment--still doesn't understand.

JACK: (insistent, still smiling) The message said your divorce was final, so here I am...
The specificity of this was removed from the scene as finally shot. Perhaps someone will have some thoughts as to why.


Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - jscheib (Thu Mar 2 2006 06:11:47 )   

Ron,

GREAT post! I hope I have time to come back to it at home tonight.

Will only say now, I'm convinced that in the film, Jack's trip to Mexico after his fruitless trip to Wyoming is his first. (It might be different in the story, but I won't go into that here.)

A thought regarding timing: At what time of year do cattle round-ups usually take place? Doesn't Ennis tell Jack that he missed his weekend with his daughters the previous month because of a round-up? Or am I just confusing the movie with something else (wouldn't be a surprise)?

I've said somewhere else, too, I can only imagine what Ennis thought, given his paranoia, when it sunk in that Jack had been asking people about him all over Riverton.

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - RobertPlant (Thu Mar 2 2006 06:29:47 )   
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Or am I just confusing the movie with something else (wouldn't be a surprise)?


No..you're right

I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - jscheib (Thu Mar 2 2006 07:03:04 )   

<<Or am I just confusing the movie with something else (wouldn't be a surprise)?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No..you're right >>

Thanks! Glad to know that!

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - henrypie (Thu Mar 2 2006 07:30:20 )   

Nice analysis, Rtrigger. You sucked me in a little -- I am back to floating on the surface of the movie, finished whatiffing, basking in Acceptance. And fatigue. You remind me that Ennis is like so many men who won't leave their wives for their mistresses -- Ennis's wife is... his closet or something. His precious lonely fear. A guy I know finally divorced his wife and paved the way for getting together with his mistress but moved 200 miles away to restore his buffer zone, proving that in most cases like that it's not the wife, it's the fear. Oy vey.

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - jscheib (Thu Mar 2 2006 07:33:54 )   

<<Ennis's wife is... his closet or something.>>

A very unpleasant term for the "something" is "beard."

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - henrypie (Thu Mar 2 2006 07:49:08 )   

hunh?
Sorry I don't get it.
Um, does this have to do with Alma? Like the bearded clam, or the beef curtains, or the trouts?

I meant once he's divorced. Alma's not the reason he won't be with Jack -- just an excuse.

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Ellemeno (Thu Mar 2 2006 07:56:02 )   

Hi Ron, thanks for posting this.

Reading this it occurred to me for the first time that "10 people in Riverton" could literally be a quarter of the population of the town.

When I saw your subject heading, I thought you were going to ask us to list what we each thought was Jack's biggest mistake in the movie. I always thought that it was letting Ennis walk away at the truck in Signal, right after coming down from the mountain, but after reading your thoughts here I'm going to change that. Now I think Jack should have started the conversation about staying together while they were still up on the mountain, still in paradise. Instead of saying he could lend Ennis some money when they got back to Signal, he could have suggested they go try to find employment somewhere else together for a month. Or flat out asked Ennis to consider not marrying Alma as planned and to figure out a way to make staying together work.

But of course that's asking a lot. And of course that's not the same story.


Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - starboard (Thu Mar 2 2006 08:00:23 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 08:03:46
the term "beard" describe a woman who is being used by a man to maintain his "masculinity". Way back the sign of masculinity is a beard. Gay men are assumed to not be masculine. Closeted gay men's wives are then their "beard". Does that make sense?

*edit to add: come to think of it, it doesn't really have to refer only to gay men's wives. I would think "trophy wives" or younger mistresses act as beards for those men who for what ever reason are insecure about their own masculinity. Middle age men who get younger mistresses to project a virility that they think they lack. Or guys who has to show off their "hot" wives so everyone will think they're studs. I think it all applies.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Mienna (Thu Mar 2 2006 09:31:57 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 09:37:36
Great and interesting entry. Really got me thinking. :-)

I completely agree that this was Jack's first trip to Mexico - it's a poignant and sad turning point in J&E's relationship. Until then Jack has believed deep down that Ennis will change his mind if Jack just gives him breathing space and time. After the divorce visit Jack doesn't think so anymore and from then on, without the belief that there'll be more from Ennis for him in the future, with much less hope to cling to, Jack can't make it on the little Ennis is able to give him. So this is Jack's first but by no means last trip to Mexico IMO.

I am sure Jack didn't say anything about leaving her to Lureen. Most likely he just took off on impulse at the spur of the moment, or he gave her some vague and hurried story about having to go to his parents or somewhere else. Perhaps he even said his "hunting buddy" had gotten divorced and was in need of help and practical support. Jack seemingly liked mentioning Ennis's name to those close to him, just for the pleasure of talking about Ennis, however much he couldn't tell them the truth. I think Lureen loved Jack all along, - substituting her hard focus on business and moneymaking for the marriage tenderness and intimacy she didn't get - and consequently she wouldn't dig too deeply into Jack's activities, and would swallow his departures from the truth...... (subconscioulsy fearing what she might find if she paid more attention, perhaps).

I actually wonder more about what Jack thought would happen to Bobby when he did tell Lureen. There's no indication that he even stopped for a moment to consider the impact on and loss of his son (whom I do believe the film clearly shows he loved), should he leave Lureen for a *man*. This contrasts nicely with Ennis's having the girls with him when Jack shows: Ennis could never have placed himself in a position where he couldn't get to see his daughters, I think - there's a certain difference between film and story Ennis there. And if the girsl had not happened to be there exactly when Jack arrived, at least J&E could have talked before Jack left.

The reasons why Jack makes the mistake of coming unannounced to Riverton....? I think that it's partly due to the certain belief and hope on his behalf that Ennis *would* come around if given enough time, space and tenderness. Jack thought the time had finally arrived. Also, he may have believed in Ennis's previous excuses more than Ennis intended - those "making aliving is about all I got time for now" ...."Shut up about Alma" etc. etc. Jack may have genuinely thought that with Alma out of the way, a significant obstacle (if not the only one) *had* been removed.

One interesting thing to speculate about is what, if anything, Ennis said to Jack in the last meeting *before* the divorce. (If they met in early November, it must have been just in advance of the court proceedings). The divorce obviously was an event waiting to happen, but when did Ennis realize that? And did he tell Jack at all....? Could he have felt it to be such a defeat on his part that he just kept silent? If the first thing Jack heard about it was that unprecedented out-of-turn letter saying a divorce came through, Jack may have seen it as the bolt out of the blue sign that his patience and hopes had *finally* paid off - and just taken off on happy impulse. Jack was a dreamer after all. In the short story, Jack comes visiting after Ennis has *phoned* him for the first and only time - clearly Jack saw this as a watershed. I would guess that Ennis didn't actually say much on the phone, but would think that hurt and confusion rather than elation and bright future prospects would be the emotion conveyed in that conversation. Still, Jack came all the way north for nothing in the story, too... I suppose Ennis similarly and uncharacteristically may have sent the divorce letter in a fit of sadness and defeat, the letter representing a connection with the one person that would be a comfort to him. And who misinterpreted it completely. :-(

I think the film didn't include Jack actually holding on to the letter in the scene because it would be stressing the point to an unneccessary degree. It's enough to know from Jack's words that a letter *was* sent.

What I like least about the scene is the "had to ask 10 people where you lived" line. Not that Jack wouldn't perhaps have done so in a pinch and a hurry, but knowing Ennis he should and would have known better than to *tell* him. Jack was normally very good as editing the version of the truth he let Ennis have, always paying attention to avoiding startling or worrying Ennis. I can only surmise that the line in this scene is meant to convey Jack's elated emotional state - he's so happy and certain that his dreams are coming through that he's thrown caution completely to the wind.



(Long reply from me, this. It's such an interesting topic. I'm a new poster here, invited by Meryl_88 to join the discussions.)

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - jscheib (Thu Mar 2 2006 09:44:12 )   

Welcome, Mienna!

Very thoughtful and interesting post!

I'd say Jack must have known the divorce was pending, since he tells Ennis that he had gotten the card that the divorce had come through. He doesn't jump out of his pickup and say something like, "OMG, Ennis, you're divorced!" <G>. He clearly knew the divorce was in the works, he probably just wasn't expecting to hear when it finally came through. I have the impression that the only time he ordinarily heard from Ennis was in connection with planning their fishing trips--such as the card that comes back to Ennis marked "deceased."

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Go_Jake (Thu Mar 2 2006 10:12:36 )   

I agree with you completely, Jeff. I think Ennis had to have told Jack he was getting divorced during their last fishing trip, since Jack is the only one he confided in. So there was probably a lot of hope building up in Jack for months afterward, and when he finally got the "message" (however it was presented to him) that the divorce came through, out of excitement, he just got in his truck, gave Lureen some excuse about a friend of his in trouble, and red-lighted it back up to Wyoming, not even thinking about how his surprise visit would effect Ennis. Love makes you do such drastic things.

And, I agree that it wasn't a good idea to a) Ask ten or so people in a small town where Ennis could be found, or b) Tell Ennis that he's been asked about. Sounds a bit stalker-ish to me.

By the way, great post! More things about the film I'll be thinking about.


Give Jake Gyllenhaal and BBM the Gold!!

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Mienna (Thu Mar 2 2006 11:48:47 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 12:05:26
Thank you for the welcome. :-)

You're right of course - Jack knew the divorce was in the works. So...I think much boils down to what Ennis said at their last meeting before the divorce, and what he *didn't* say; - ie. how Jack interpreted the stony silences. After all - what did Jack have to go on? Among other things, the memory of a man who fidgeted, murmured "See you around" and walked away, only to prove a veritable volcano of passion after four long years. That memory mixed with hopes, dreams and desires probably led Jack to read far too much into the unexpected and un-Ennislike "The divorce came through" message.

(Incidentally, though Jack must be the one who understands Ennis the most and reads him the best, this isn't the only time he misreads Ennis's stoic silences and his efforts to "Stand it". In their last meeting when Jack says "I'm not you. I can't make it... etc.", it turns out that Ennis can't take it anymore either - he's just been too good at hiding the pain, even from Jack.)


Though I rationalize it, some part of me still doesn't quite understand how Ennis manages to turn Jack away in the post divorce scene - Jack's happiness and love radiates so strongly in the beginning of that scene that you'd think even Ennis might have been brought to his knees, 10 people in Riverton be damned.


Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - lnicoll (Thu Mar 2 2006 12:13:37 )   

Mienna wrote:
Though I rationalize it, some part of me still doesn't quite understand how Ennis manages to turn Jack away in the post divorce scene - Jack's happiness and love radiates so strongly in the beginning of that scene that you'd think even Ennis might have been brought to his knees, 10 people in Riverton be damned.

My reply:

I think the *only* thing that gave him the strength to deny what he was seeing and feeling was the fact that his two daughters were sitting in the truck. If they hadn't been there, I think things may have played out differently, from the moment and for the rest of their lives.

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Mienna (Thu Mar 2 2006 12:27:06 )   

Oh yes. I think so too - maybe. Just maybe.

It seems Ennis deliberately uses the girls to break the spell and ward off his own emotions there - he introduces Jack to the girls not only to let him know they're not alone, but also to pull himself back to reality.

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - jscheib (Thu Mar 2 2006 12:41:30 )   

I'm glad lnicoll brought up the girls. A long time ago, over on the main board, I started a thread, I think I called it "Did Ennis do the right thing?", or something like that, that raised the issue of whether Ennis did the right thing in putting his daughters ahead of Jack. I guess people who disagreed with me didn't post on the thread, but those who did post agreed with me that it was right for Ennis to put his daughters first.

It's such a sad situation (like, what isn't in this movie?), and as much as I love Jack and hate to say it, it's really brought on by his romantic but unwise impulsiveness.

Not to change the direction of the discussion, but it amazes me how McMurtry and Ossana built this whole scene up from less than a complete sentence in the Annie Proulx story. Interesting to me, too, that in the story, Ennis actually TELEPHONED Jack about the divorce coming through, and Jack still misunderstood the purpose of the call and traveled all the way back to Wyoming "for nothing."

(The context here is that when Ennis gets his postcard back stamped "Deceased" and telephones Jack's number in Childress, Annie Proulx tells us that this was only the second time--in 20 years!--that Ennis had ever telephoned Jack, the first time having been when the divorce came through.)

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Ennis's postcard   
by - Julie01 (Thu Mar 2 2006 12:43:22 )   

In an earlier thread, I asked why Ennis had sent the postcard at ALL,--wouldn't he have known what Jack would do? The meeting was planned for the following month, and he didn't have to tell Jack that he didn't know where he would be, no longer being married to Alma, because they wouldn't meet at Ennis's house anyway, but at a pre-arranged meeting prospective campsite. So the postcard was NOT a "you may have trouble finding me" postcard, and, since Ennis didn't plan any changes in his relatiuomnship with Jack--why the hell DID he send the postcard? They were not the writing type. I'd say the mistake was initiated with Ennis; didn't he know better than to light the ignition under a rocket?


And I don't believe it was any need to confide in Jack that he was no longer married to Alma; I think the way Ennis thought, that could easily have waited till their meeting...

Maybe if Ennis hadn't sent the POSTCARD, things might have been different.

I doubt it. "We can get together way the hell out in the middle of nowhere..."


"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Ennis's postcard   
by - Go_Jake (Thu Mar 2 2006 12:58:20 )   

Not to take away from Julie's question, which is a good one, but for which I don't have an answer, I think there are a few good reasons why this plot point was expanded on in the screenplay. This is just my speculation, but I think one of those reasons was the writers wanted to show that Jack was in love with Ennis, and it just wasn't lust for him. You don't just drive hundreds of miles to find your lover after he's gotten divorced, and plan to leave your family for him if you're not in love with him. If he were just in this for sex, he could have waited until he saw Ennis again the next month.

Just my two pennies!



Give Jake Gyllenhaal and BBM the Gold!!

Re: Ennis's postcard   
by - henrypie (Thu Mar 2 2006 13:06:12 )   

This is a wonderful discussion and I agree with Julie, something devilish -- or thoughtless -- made Ennis send that postcard that lit the fuse on the rocket.

p.s. I just gotta air this -- and it's not first time I've made a Freudian misreading of something (you should have a conversation with me -- lots of Freudian mis-hearings) -- but so at the end of GoJake's post: "Just my two pennies!"

Assume what I thought "pennies" was for less than a second, and understand why I giggled in my "area" (it's not a cubicle).

Okeydoke, back to the show.

Re: Ennis's postcard   
by - jscheib (Thu Mar 2 2006 13:11:14 )   
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<<I think there are a few good reasons why this plot point was expanded on in the screenplay. This is just my speculation, but I think one of those reasons was the writers wanted to show that Jack was in love with Ennis, and it just wasn't lust for him. >>

I would agree with you, Go_Jake. Look at the pain in Jack's face as he drives away in tears. This man is hopelessly in love. Heartbreaking. Just heartbreaking.

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Ennis's postcard   
by - Julie01 (Thu Mar 2 2006 13:27:12 )   
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I think at this point both of them are in love, and have been for quite a while. The full realization of what "love" is doesn't come to Ennis till after Jack's death. But Jack has been driving hundreds of miles to see Ennis ever since the end of those first 4 years...

I still say, it's Ennis's fault for sending the postcard in the first place.
A man who makes no verbal response to "Tell you what....the truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" need not communicate anything vital in a postcard.

O/T one of the incredible things about Heath Ledger's acting is how much he makes us love this terrified, homophobic JERK...(this of course goes to the writers and the director--and Jake--as well).



"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - opinionista (Thu Mar 2 2006 17:29:29 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 17:33:44
Did he tell Lureen he was leaving her? What reason would he have given--the truth? That doesn't seem likely--if so, when he came back with his tail between his legs, she almost certainly would have told him to get lost.


I've always thought Jack gets killed on his way back from Wyoming. That he didn't really have time to talk to either Lureen or Randall about his plans. Considering he made that decision after his argument with Ennis, of course. Otherwise why would he wait so long to leave his wife? I know leaving a spouse is not easy, especially when there are children to think about but usually when this kind of decisions are made, there's no going back. Besides Jack and Lureen's marriage was practically broken already. Remember the "We could do it over the phone" line. I'm not sure about what I'm saying here. It's just a thought, I'm not as good as some of you following the time lines in the movie. Proulx says Ennis didn't know for month about Jack's death, I don't know.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - delalluvia (Thu Mar 2 2006 18:18:29 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 19:40:44
Hiya Ron,

Interesting post. I must say that the first time I skimmed the title of the thread, the first thought in my head was:

Jack's biggest mistake was getting involved with an emotionally unavailable man in the first place!

I think also that 'mistake' is a harsh word. Jack's in a difficult relationship with a difficult high-maintenance man. Any 'mistakes' he makes are not mistakes per se, but misunderstandings, mixed goals or crossed wires.

It's when Jack failed to think clearly about Ennis's message informing him of the divorce. His subsequent actions were nothing less than disastrous.

His subsequent actions are not disasterous. They were illuminating. The truth is an iron bride. Harsh but Jack was shaken from his ill-founded hopes.

spring of 1976...snow on the ground

Both Jack and Ennis are wearing jackets. So it's either late spring or early fall.

By that time, Jack and Ennis had known each other for almost 13 years and had been in regular contact for the last eight-and-a-half of those years.

What's 'regular' though? Ennis called the shots in their relationship. Ennis was a ranch hand, he had proscribed periods when he could get away 'before the winter feeding' but not during the 'round up', not in the spring when the 'heifers are calving', etc. it was seasonal. So for all we know, they met up during certain times of the year, only thing that varied was the exact date. So perhaps throughout each meeting, they discussed the next meeting and Ennis would send a postcard finally pinning down the date. Maybe 4-5 postcards per year? At most?

As I said on another thread some time ago, Ennis did NOT like surprises. What could have made Jack think that even if Ennis was now willing to make a life with him after the divorce, that Ennis would be thrilled by an unannounced visit? If Jack hadn't been so blinded by love, he would have taken at least the minimal precaution of writing back first.

From the screenplay:

ENNIS is surprised, puzzled as to why JACK is there, but is nonetheless - as always - thrilled to see him....they hug one another mightily

ENNIS (genuinely surprised and happy)

After the reunion kiss and the night in the motel, Ennis seems to have been determined never to overrule his instincts again and avoided ever again being seen with Jack in public.

Agree, but the screenplay dispels the idea that Ennis wouldn't WANT to see him at all in town or at his home.

It's astounding that Jack never once thought--"Ennis will still want us to be careful." Showing up at Ennis's place--and in daylight? Asking "10 different people in Riverton" where Ennis had moved to--and telling Ennis that he had done so?

Jack is a risk taker. Plus, for all he knew, Ennis may have been ready to leave town. Jack might have imagined 'what would Ennis care' now that he's leaving town to be with Jack out in the middle of nowhere? Why would they need to be extremely careful?

Asking '10 different people' is probably an exaggeration in number and again, so one man is asking directions to another man's house. How is that suspicious in any way?

On top of all this, as someone else asked, what did Jack tell Lureen about this trip? He certainly had to let her know in advance whenever he went to Wyoming; his job with her father depended on his reliability. And he was going to visit Ennis the next month anyway--so how did he explain this spur-of-the-moment trip?

Easy, as has been pointed out. His fishing/hunting buddy got a divorce. Jack's going to run up to Wyoming to help him move/moral support/get drunk/commiserate. Any number of reasons, easy ones, ones Lureen had no reason to be suspicious of or have any reason to protest. He very likely didn't tell Lureen he was leaving her. He would have wanted to get some $$ out of L.D. Newsome and that would have also been something to talk with Ennis about first. To make plans - Where are we going? What are we going to do? Where are we going to live? - in order to determine how much.

Does anyone else think that Jack went to Mexico solely out of hurt and frustration? Is anyone else sure that the visit to Juarez we see was his first?

Yes and yes.

Team Jolie

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - mlewisusc (Thu Mar 2 2006 19:31:20 )   

Ah, a post that takes me back to the heady days two months or so ago . . .

Let me deal with one of Del's statements first. Del, you say the following, immediately above:

>>Asking '10 different people' is probably an exaggeration in number and again, so one man is asking directions to another man's house. How is that suspicious in any way? <<

It's not suspicious to someone thinking clearly, but to a man overcome with paranoia about the danger of his clandestine relationship, that would be a tremendously frightening thing to hear. This is a problem internal to Ennis, not a problem externally in the community. And if Jack did in fact exaggerate, this would only compound his "mistake" here. I had to be "brought around" to this view by some other posters some time ago.

In response to Ron's original post, as well as the other great posts on this thread, I wanted to point out some of the differences between the Story and Film because I believe them to be, as always, fairly enlightening (or perhaps I feel that light can shine through the gaps between Story and Film). I have nothing definitive here, just thoughts and arguments I want comments in support of or contrary to.

First, in the story, I believe Jack and Ennis never kiss face to face, or really "make love" at all - just rough sex - until the four year reunion. Many agree with me, and I have my evidence (Jack's thoughts about the HUG being the biggest perhaps) but why does this matter in this context? To answer a good though another poster put forward above about Jack's truly biggest mistake being NOT staying with Ennis immediately after BBM. In the story, Jack kept the shirts perhaps as a reminder of the thrilling sexual adventure (in the story at least I believe the earliest he would have "nested" the shirts was in 1967 after their first reunion), and certainly was trying to arrange such a situation again, but in the story did not himself perhaps realize that he was in love enough to try to make a life together. I believe that in the story, he (Jack) did not come to this realization until MUCH later (but before he sent the first postcard to Ennis). In fact, it was Ennis in the story who, once he figured out what his problem was (why he was feeling so bad) realized that he never "should a let [Jack] out a [his] sights . . ." All this to say, in the Film, they do the things that lovers do from the second tent scene on . . . and this sets up a deep love and pattern in Jack right then - the attempt to get a corresponding commitment, going after guys later who remind him of Ennis vs. just going after guys for sex.

Which brings me to my second point, or observation rather. In the story of course, we know Jack has sex with other men before their reunion AND HIDES THIS FACT FROM ENNIS in their motel conversation. Why does this matter in light of our topic? Because it leads me to believe (and agree with everyone in general) that, in spite of Film Jack's attempt to pick up Jimbo, he basically held himself apart for Ennis in terms of m/m sex, ESPECIALLY after the motel scene, and indeed his crushing loss/mistake drives him to the Mexican hustlers for relief. Story Jack, of course, is getting all he needs elsewhere during the entire relationship. I can't say if this proves he loves Ennis MORE or LESS than Film Jack does, but somehow, in a way that maybe someone else can put their finger on for me, it changes the dynamic of the entire scene (I don't mean technically, e.g. from our perspective - I mean if Jack is getting his needs fulfilled physically, and he still wants to be with Ennis, maybe it makes for more pathos . . . )

My third observation is simply to point out again that Ennis's paranoia and homophobia is of a completely different character in the Story vs Film, if not all that different in result vis a vis their relationship and Jack's desires. Why does this matter in terms of this scene? Well, it relates I think to Jack's sensitivity towards Ennis's reactions. In a sense, Film Jack has a much more difficult role to play, he must manage Ennis's paranoia and his own growing desire without relief, and this helps explain the extent of this mistake/misreading of Ennis in this scene - also throwing in the bad misfortune of arriving just when Ennis has his girls with him. Story Jack gets what he needs elsewhere, and will just take as much of Ennis emotionally as he can get. Let me project to try and get my feeling across here: if Story Jack were to have moved back up to Wyoming just to be near Story Ennis, Story Ennis probably would have been pleased and not freaked out - but for Story Jack, just being near Ennis (instead of living with Ennis) would not have been enough reason to leave Bobby (and even I suppose Lureen). However, if Film Jack had dared to move up close to Ennis, Ennis would have freaked out, and Film Jack would have risked the loss of this relationship that meant everything to him (at least at the time), the relationship he was working so hard and delicately to nurture, protect and grow if possible. This "mistake" does seem to be the one time he throws his caution to the wind in terms of safely maintaining his relationship with Ennis (until the final confrontation, of course).

Fourth, a small but I think important dialog change Story to Film, as follows; in the final confrontation, Story Jack accuses Ennis of not "wanting" the "sweet life" they could have had; in the film, he says that Ennis wouldn't "do" it. That appears to me to be a vital difference in Jack's perception of the reasons, and maybe even the depth, of Ennis's rejection of Jack and their relationship - which is so at odds with my perception of their level of physical involvement early on - or perhaps not. Perhaps the level of typical "lover" behavior that Ennis and Jack engaged in on BBM in the film is EXACTLY what triggered Ennis's internally directed homophobia, self-loathing, and paranoia. Really, for the entire film then, although he desperately WANTED Jack around, he also, deep inside, really didn't want Jack around, to remind him (Ennis) of who and "what" Ennis "really" was. . . where as in the Story, the activity that implied "queerness" (e.g, kissing and similar) didn't begin until after Ennis had had four years to process the experience, and spend time longing for Jack and the thrill of their sexual couplings. Even in the motel (Story motel), Ennis almost seems like he's ready to explore the idea of being queer - "You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was -?" Now, Ennis asking Jack at the end of his speech if Jack does it with other guys - and Jack almost instinctively lying and answering in the negative, COULD be taken as Jack "managing" Ennis's homophobia even here. But I still see it as Jack managing their relationship by flattering Ennis with the notion that Ennis is Jack's "one and only" for this type of behavior. Because sex with Ennis was the best? "All that time a yours a horseback"? Because he never made an emotional connection with any of his other guys like he did with Ennis? Certainly, Ennis claims there in the motel that sex with Jack is over the top, compared to sex with women - but Ennis never has another m/m sexual experience (that we know of, seems incredibly unlikely) to compare it to - and doesn't seem to WANT one (ulp, back to the "Jacksexual" argument again!).

Jsheib, as always, I agree with your thoughts, especially about the girls in that scene. And although Alma was no longer in the picture, his girls and their welfare in town, and even his ability to interact with them, may perhaps have depended on him NOT ranching up with Jack - so sadly, I have to agree that he did the right thing (although if he hadn't been so damn paranoid/homophobic, he could have had Jack stick around until he dropped the girls off at the appropriate time. But then, maybe Jack's pride was too wounded, he was too emotionally crushed, for him to have stuck around and waited).

Finally, and sadly Ron, with Film Ennis at least, I just don't see Jack saying or doing anything that could have changed the course of their relationship - except die. To agree with you, Film Jack definitely went to Juarez out of hurt and frustration, but this allowed him to learn to indulge himself there. Story Jack had been partying in Mexico since their reunion at least, and though no more of it than tossing back a beer with friends, except he knew he had to keep it from his "other half."

Whew! Really had NO INTENTION of posting tonight, just a quick glance, but I couldn't stand it, so I had to try and fix it.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Rontrigger (Thu Mar 2 2006 20:39:30 )   

Well, Opinionista, this thread is about Jack's spur-of-the-moment trip to Wyoming after Ennis wrote him about the divorce. My question was what he told Lureen as an excuse to go on this trip with another one already planned for the following month. I hadn't thought of the excellent possibilities suggested.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - fernly (Thu Mar 2 2006 20:45:22 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 23:16:05
mlewisusc,

lots and lots to think about....
except way too sad right now -

I just don't see Jack saying or doing anything that could have changed the course of their relationship - except die.

"on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air"

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Rontrigger (Thu Mar 2 2006 21:31:50 )   

I am so thrilled by the number AND the quality of responses--this is why I knew I had to post this over here instead of on the old board.

<Sigh> I'm beginning to realize that there was probably no chance for a happy ending. Annie Proulx herself said she tried to save Jack, but couldn't. Well, if SHE couldn't, who am I to try?

I still think that Jack made a mistake going to see Ennis when he did. But even so, they had seven more years after that. And I can cling to the possibility that Ennis was finally getting a clue before Jack's death (gives Cassie the heave-ho, sends Jack the "November" postcard).

Bottom line is--they found each other, had one magnificent summer, and then 20 years of mostly separation. But we'll never know what happened on all those other "fishing trips" we didn't see. I'd wager that most of those times they were as happy as any of us could imagine. Despite what finally happened to them--death for one, regret for the other--I don't want a day to come when I'll think that it would have been better if they had never seen each other again after the Brokeback summer, or even if they had never met.

It's not only God, but love that works in mysterious ways, folks. And never more mysteriously, I think, than in this tale of Jack and Ennis. I KNOW that they--and "Brokeback Mountain"--will stay with me forever.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - mlewisusc (Fri Mar 3 2006 00:16:19 )   
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Rontrigger,

Another poster, I don't know if it was on Chez Tremblay or the BBM board, pointed out that Jack did not look happy on any trip after the scene you are discussing here. I think the story tells a different tale, and I didn't like the post because I didn't like to face the possibility. . .

But I also think what you are saying is "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

I agree. Thanks again for the thread, and keep them coming.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - opinionista (Fri Mar 3 2006 04:26:11 )   
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UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 05:30:22
Well, Opinionista, this thread is about Jack's spur-of-the-moment trip to Wyoming after Ennis wrote him about the divorce. My question was what he told Lureen as an excuse to go on this trip with another one already planned for the following month.

Sorry, I feel like a fool. I read the long thread at 3 AM last night and obviously didn't get the point! Well, I've thought of the following scenario:

Alma slaps Ennis in the face with divorce papers, takes the girls and moves in with her sister or throws Ennis from home. Shortly after his divorce is final, Ennis receives a card from Jack suggesting they meet sometime during that month. Ennis answers that he can't see him because he has to work and plus just got divorced and must look for a place to live, and that he'd rather see him the following month. Jack receives the card, and gets so excited he can't even think or remember Ennis doesn't like suprises because he is conviced Ennis divorced Alma because of him (Poor Jack, really). And since Lureen has no relationship with his parents he's able to come up with some lame excuse like having to go to help his Dad with some urgent problem at the ranch that cannot wait. And just take off to see Ennis. So, what do you think?

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - jscheib (Fri Mar 3 2006 05:55:22 )   

(Sigh), mlewisusc, as always, you've put your finger on SO many imortant and enlightening differences between the story and the film. I think I need to save your post, above.

I need to thank rontrigger, too, however, for making me realize I'd never thought about why Ennis breaks it off with Cassie (beyond thinking he really wasn't that interested to begin with--except that I never really thought about WHY he really wasn't interested), and the timing of the end of that relationship in relation to other events in the film.

A tip of the ol' Resistol to you both!

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - henrypie (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:05:14 )   

UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 06:05:51
(I've certainly posted this before as I'm sure have others, but) yes indeed, consider their moods, the weight they carry, in the scene immediately after Ennis's gets his head bashed Thanksgiving night. -- That's a particularly painful demonstration of how they can't shake their other lives and really enjoy their time together. The seamless transition from the fight/beating scene to the joyless riding together is an extra-unbearable touch. I think the handful of trips we see are probably a good telescoping of how they actually went: more painful, or at least less alive, every time.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - delalluvia (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:09:42 )   

UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 06:12:30
Let me deal with one of Del's statements first. Del, you say the following, immediately above:

>>Asking '10 different people' is probably an exaggeration in number and again, so one man is asking directions to another man's house. How is that suspicious in any way? <<

It's not suspicious to someone thinking clearly, but to a man overcome with paranoia about the danger of his clandestine relationship, that would be a tremendously frightening thing to hear. This is a problem internal to Ennis, not a problem externally in the community. And if Jack did in fact exaggerate, this would only compound his "mistake" here. I had to be "brought around" to this view by some other posters some time ago.

I agree that Jack saying this to Ennis would compound his paranoia, but the scene is strangely contradictory. In the screenplay and movie, Ennis looks happy and is happy in fact thrilled to see Jack.

In this scene and the reunion scene Ennis has no problem hugging Jack in full view of god and everyone. In the post divorce scene he doesn't even look around, he doesn't check to see if the girls are watching, he does this willingly and freely and spontaneously. I imagine it's how they always greet each other.

But a few minutes later he's worried that someone might see them talking?!? The only way out of this contradiction is that Ennis is unthinking when it comes to first seeing Jack - "this thing grabs hold of us" - and it's only later that his paranoia steps in.

Team Jolie

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - mlewisusc (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:24:47 )   

6 am here folks, logged on to check weather in the desert here, and you are dragging me back to posting (shame on you all!)

A few brief things:

1. henrypie, VERY sad post, reinforcing my repetition of something someone else said, but you drew the loop tight for me, the cut from Ennis getting his head bashed (btw, something I don't think happened in the story - I think he started and WON that fight) to Jack and Ennis fording the river and NOT looking like they were having much fun . . . OUCH!

2. Jsheib and Rontrigger, dumping Cassie - because he's beginning to think differently about Jack? I mean, about drawing closer to him, ready to think about living with him? I'm not saying you guys are saying this, but perhaps implying this? I'm pondering.

If we go with the "torqued things back," then, even though Film Ennis says "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" he's actually just thinking things will go along as they have been going for the last 16 years.

If we go with what dumping Cassie might imply, the November postcard is a peace offering/overture, and possibly, as his life constricts painfully, he might be more open to the idea of . . . moving to Texas to be near Jack? Actually ranching up together? I could maybe buy this line of thought, but I react towards it as if I touched fire because it feels too hopeful, and at the same time, given what happened (Jack's death), too painful. . .

(BTW, does anyone else besides me think I use the ellipsis dots too much? But I can't quit them . . . )

I had taken from other posters that dumping Cassie was a sign of his realizing he wouldn't be able to make a woman happy, that his life was too screwed up to share with someone like her - and in writing that, I can see how that's a positive move - away from the beard - more accepting, somehow, of who he is/what he is, which is a BIG step for Film Ennis - making him, I suppose, that much closer (even if by millimeters) to being willing to "be" with Jack . . .

VERY interesting, guys. And VERY sad.

I will be with you all in thought Sunday night (will be at party I can't miss, and away from the boards).

I do find myself hoping Heath will get the little gold guy, but expecting PSH to wrangle it - beginning to get angry that I care so much, actually.

Otherwise have a good weekend! I (he says haughtily) will be at a resort in the desert . . . and it might be raining!

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Ellemeno (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:30:51 )   
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UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 22:41:17
I've developed this picture in my head of Jack coming home from dropping Bobby at school and getting his boots shined and stopping by the mailbox to collect the mail.

He starts shuffling through it, not expecting anything of interest (Lureen pays the bills), and there, between the farm store circular and the newsletter for the Childress Chamber of Commerce (of which Lureen is a member), is Ennis's little postcard.

Jack doesn't even go inside for a toothbrush, or to change out of his little lace-up-sided jacket that normally he wouldn't wear in front of Ennis for fear of lookin too queer. He just crams the rest of the mail back into the box, none too neatly, gets back in his truck, peels out the driveway, and heads for the nearest northbound road, only remembering to call Lureen with some excuse somewhere around the Oklahoma border.

And whatever time it is at that point, if he thinks she's still at work, he calls home and leaves a message with Lupe to give to Señora when she gets home, or he calls work and leaves the message with Elbert to put a message on Miz Newsome-Twist's desk to find in the mornin.

When Lureen comes home for lunch and finds the mail shoved messily in the mailbox she's puzzled at first, but then later at the bank she hears a rumor that Jack was seen on the road headin to the freeway doin 80, and figures it out. She doesn't know who Jack's goin to see or where, but she knows it's a man (there've been too many clues in the past). And even before Jack's phone message is finally relayed to her, she knows she won't be seein Jack at the supper table tonight.

Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Ellemeno (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:34:45 )   

>> consider their moods, the weight they carry, in the scene immediately after Ennis's gets his head bashed Thanksgiving night. -- That's a particularly painful demonstration of how they can't shake their other lives and really enjoy their time together. The seamless transition from the fight/beating scene to the joyless riding together is an extra-unbearable touch. I think the handful of trips we see are probably a good telescoping of how they actually went: more painful, or at least less alive, every time.

What hpie said. I'm always struck by the almost lumbering quality of the horses in that very next scene after Ennis is beaten up. And how they sit so heavily on those horses, rolling with the horse's gait, but ponderously.

Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Ellemeno (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:43:29 )   
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>> "this thing grabs hold of us"

The thing grabs hold of Ennis and he lights up with joy at seeing Jack get out of the truck, and steps in for a big (albeit manly) hug. But the moment Jack lovingly caresses Ennis's neck (such a beautiful touch), gazes into Ennis's eyes, and looks about to kiss him, Ennis straightens up (literally - tries to go unqueer), pulls Jack's hand off, and heads to the truck to show Jack his two little observers.

Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Ellemeno (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:48:26 )   
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>> (BTW, does anyone else besides me think I use the ellipsis dots too much? But I can't quit them . . . )

M, you and your posts are just right! Have fun this weekend. We'll save you a coupla elk ribs for when you get back. Better bring some more whiskey though, when you come.

Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - delalluvia (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:50:32 )   

The thing grabs hold of Ennis and he lights up with joy at seeing Jack get out of the truck, and steps in for a big (albeit manly) hug. But the moment Jack lovingly caresses Ennis's neck (such a beautiful touch), gazes into Ennis's eyes, and looks about to kiss him, Ennis straightens up (literally - tries to go unqueer), pulls Jack's hand off, and heads to the truck to show Jack his two little observers.

Actually, their hugs are always extremely affectionate. They hang their necks over each other's shoulders and hold each other tightly. Few straight men I know hug so closely. Jack's hand goes to the back of Ennis' neck to pull him close and that's where Ennis, takes Jack's hand off his neck, but still uses it to pull him over to the truck to meet his children.

A nice touch, I thought.


Team Jolie

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Ellemeno (Fri Mar 3 2006 06:54:32 )   

>> takes Jack's hand off his neck, but still uses it to pull him over to the truck to meet his children.

Agreed, wonderful touch. One of those details I wonder who thought of. Heath? Ang? Jake?

Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - austendw (Fri Mar 3 2006 07:26:03 )   

UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 07:29:03
Wow, mlewisusc - Wow, but that's difficult to pronounce... Your name's Mark, isn't it?) - that's one hell of a long post for someone who didn't intend to post at all! I guess I'm going through a Brokeback fatigue period and I'm not sure I can still do that. Slowly and inexorably distancing myself perhaps. Anyway, just a few thoughts:

in the story at least I believe the earliest he would have "nested" the shirts was in 1967 after their first reunion

While as you know I agree with more or less entirely with your understanding of how the story plots their relationship, and how that differs from the film, I don't agree on the point you make here or that it's a natural corollary of the story version. For simple "realism" I can't see how Jack would have managed to keep the two shirts as they were, without washing them, for those four years, unless they were already hidden away in that little shrine in the back of his closet at his parents' home. Seems to me that the fact that they weren't ever washed implies that from day one they were kept together as a special token of that Summer. After all, the shirts being nested one inside the other isn't only a moonily romantic gesture, credible only after the four year reunion, but a very concrete evocation of their very physical intimacy. It's sexy goddamit, and so while not the symbol of a great romantic relationship, could easily have been an intense memento of a powerfully erotic one, put together immediately after their Brokeback summer. In fact, thinking about it, it would actually have been before the reunion, when, for all Jack knew, his relationship with Ennis was never going to be resumed, that the shirts would have been most resonant. They evoked Jack's intimacy with the absent Ennis, perhaps gone forever, in a similar if less tragic way that later, they evoke Ennis's attachment to the dead Jack.

As regards your second point, I think that the film in general takes a more "romantic" approach to the issue of Jack's sexuality. In the film his other sexual activities seem reluctant substitutes for romance with Ennis. The rodeo clown incident is a tentative and unsuccessful episode; Mexico is a dark reaction to his "rejection" by Ennis - as if he's doing it less for his pleasure than a sort of consolation, almost to spite Ennis (a bit like spurned lovers immediately took to the bottle in earlier days). Both episodes seem motivated by a primarily emotional need, a loneliness that in truth only Ennis can cure. In the story Jack has a more freely acknowledged sexual appetite: he wants sex more than Ennis, and is not unsuccessful at getting it. As a result of this different approach, the final argument has, for me, a slight different resonance: in the film Jack seems to excuse his actions as reluctant substitutes for love, whereas in the story he seems more to accuse Ennis of depriving him of the sex he needs.

I dunno... perhaps I'm overstating the difference, but there is a subtle distinction in the film's attitude to sex in general, I think. The Mexico scene is crucial. In the film it's position (after the rejection), and its staging (seedy street, the disappearance into the anonymous dark,) makes this episode pretty negative in impact. The story, however, leaves it possible that Jack went to hook up with cute Mexicans (in daytime even) without a shred of gloom or angst.

In the story, I think Jack's sexuality is, shall we say, more broadly based; Mexico is just something else he does. Does that necessarily dilute his love for Ennis? Obviously the answer depends very much on the individual.

Now, isn't it strange? I didn't plan to post anything about BBM today either...


Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - kelda_shelton (Fri Mar 3 2006 07:29:29 )   

I hadn’t clicked on - until re reading these posts now – that Ennis had split with Cassie directly after the last bust up with Jack. And it leads me to think that perhaps this would have been a turn around point – to a certain extent – for Ennis had Jack not died. Why do I say that? Well…

- he initiated the postcard ( a thing he did very little – indeed we’re talking about the reaction of Jack the one time we see that he does do this) and I think had Jack been alive, he would have seen this as a ‘sorry – I still love you’ and quit the ideas of Randall in a second. Jack’s comments to his dad about another rancher coming up were after their last meeting and he was bitter. But I don’t think this would have stayed in this frame of mind for long – he could never be too bitter with Ennis.
- if Jack had been alive when Alma Jnr had announced her engagement I can see how things might have progressed. Ennis’ children are growing up – which means he doesn’t have the same need to be so near them as a father of growing children should, and secondly, there was less child support to pay. While I don’t think Ennis would have moved towards getting that ‘cow and calf operation’ – that sweet life we all wished for them – I can see him perhaps having moved closer to Jack as a ‘compromise’ and being more able to take unpaid time off. And I think in at least the short term that would have been enough to keep jack hanging on in hope.


BBM-aholic! See..www.revelationtees.spreadshirt.com (& .net!)

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - fernly (Fri Mar 3 2006 07:30:22 )   

clarissa and del,
I was wondering, when Ennis heads to the truck to show Jack his two little observers.
Are Jr. or Jenny sitting where they can see Ennis and Jack in the side-view mirror, either in the first mostly joyous exchange, or a few moments later when Ennis breaks Jack's, and I think now, his own heart, given the way Ennis stands frozen with the bleak landscape behind him?
Maybe this is another of starboard's rhymes, maybe ndatmo's unforgettable post about the first parting applies here too,
Objects in your sideview mirror may appear smaller, farther away and much sadder than you could ever imagine.

"on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air"

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - jscheib (Fri Mar 3 2006 07:58:25 )   

austendw,

With regards to the different approaches to Jack's sexuality in the story compared to the film, I don't think you're overstating it at all. I agree with you completely. And I like the way you describe the difference in Jack's approach to his own "extracurricular activities" at the confrontation.

Well done! Great post!

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - opinionista (Fri Mar 3 2006 09:37:45 )   

UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 09:38:28
I hadn’t clicked on - until re reading these posts now – that Ennis had split with Cassie directly after the last bust up with Jack. And it leads me to think that perhaps this would have been a turn around point – to a certain extent – for Ennis had Jack not died.


Well, I think if there was a chance for this story to have a happy ending, Proulx would've ended it in a happy way. But there isn't. Proulx herself has said it. I don't think Ennis was capable of overcoming his fears towards his sexuality. He would never agreed to live with Jack in a ranch. Even if Jack had indeed decided to leave him for Randall. In a real life situation, Ennis would've need extensive therapy to do so. If Jack hadn't died their situation would've continued to be just the same. Or perhaps they would've slowly grown apart as time continued to go by. Jack had to die for Ennis to realized what he has lost and how much he was loved. That is the tragedy of the story.

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - delalluvia (Fri Mar 3 2006 16:54:58 )   

UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 16:59:37
fernly

I was wondering, when Ennis heads to the truck to show Jack his two little observers. Are Jr. or Jenny sitting where they can see Ennis and Jack in the side-view mirror, either in the first mostly joyous exchange, or a few moments later when Ennis breaks Jack's, and I think now, his own heart, given the way Ennis stands frozen with the bleak landscape behind him?

No. His two girls are not in a position to see what the two men are doing. I checked on this a couple of times. They would have had to hang their heads outside of the driver's side window to see the two men.

Ennis' truck is parked at an angle away from Jack's truck which is not parked at an exact right angle to it (i.e. the cab of Jack's truck does not face the cab of Ennis' truck). So, the cab of Ennis' truck is facing away from Jack's truck and Ennis has the horse-carrier stalls in the back of his truck which horizontally block more than half the rear window of the cab.

So unless the girls contorted themselves to catch a glimpse of the two men from the driver's side mirror or stuck their heads out the window, they couldn't see what Ennis and Jack were doing.

austen,

The Mexico scene is crucial. In the film it's position (after the rejection), and its staging (seedy street, the disappearance into the anonymous dark,) makes this episode pretty negative in impact. The story, however, leaves it possible that Jack went to hook up with cute Mexicans (in daytime even) without a shred of gloom or angst.

Agree completely. Let me add that the scene could also have been further emphasis on the danger of men seeking other men at the time. The story does indeed leave open the idea that Jack's further adventures in Mexico might have grown smoother and easier - he might have even found a 'favorite'. Heck, even the movie doesn't imply that this isn't possible. Movie Jack continues to go to Mexico after all. Even if in love and bereft of Ennis' company, men can certainly compartmentalize love from sex. Jack would've been no different. The story also seems to imply that Jack's sexual adventures pre-reunion were also not always a dark journey ("Jack, who had been riding more than bulls not rolling his own"). Movie Jack has the one pre-reunion seduction attempt with the rodeo clown which is fraught with tension and danger, but story Jack seems to have no trouble finding what he needs.

Team Jolie

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - JLScheib (Fri Mar 3 2006 19:45:32 )   

<<I've developed this picture in my head of Jack. ...>>

Clarissa, that whole little scenario is GOOD! You need to start writin' some Brokeback fanfic, girlfriend!

Philadelphia Jeff
"There was something in his expression, a kind of bitter longing."--Annie Proulx

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - mlewisusc (Fri Mar 3 2006 22:22:07 )   

C, thanks so much! Didn't make it to the desert, long story, but this thread is almost making up for it! I still can't be with you all Sunday night, but you will nevertheless be in my thoughts. See above for more substance (not dense like Elk but close).

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Jack's biggest mistake in the relationship?   
by - Julie01 (Fri Mar 3 2006 22:30:59 )   

C'mon, M, the fight started mutually, Jack kneed Ennis accidentally in the nose, and then, just like in the movie, Ennis reacted to Jack's attempts at comforting him with a hard sock...and layed the ministering angel out among the wild columbine, wings folded. Love that line!



"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

I still don't think Ennis, in his right mind, would have sent that post   
by - Julie01 (Fri Mar 3 2006 22:34:05 )   

UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 22:35:21
card...........................

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

The shirts and sex   
by - mlewisusc (Fri Mar 3 2006 23:09:25 )   

Hey austendw, my first full night in Europe was in the Belgian seaside town of Oostende - I thought it was horribly tawdry, but I was young, worn out from my first 14 hour airplane ride, and it was, I think, 1982 . . . a tawdry year in general.

I relate this story because every time I see your "handle" here and try to pronounce it, I think of Oostende . . .

My "handle" was deciphered by Ellenemo before Angless Angfest by the Sea, and was basically chosen for me over a year ago by a roommate with the wits I lacked to set up the DSL account here at home. Indeed you have my proper name correct, but I'm into the privacy thing, which is why, once you figure out my "handle" it's a pretty stupid handle . . . but I don't mind any of you here at Chez Tremblay using my Christian name whenever you want. And if you prefer I use yours, let me know.

OK, so much for the intro, I was supposed to be gone this weekend but the plans fell through, as they say, at the last minute.

I was really struck by your thoughts on the shirts, and, changeable with the wind as I am (or perhaps we can charitably say intelligent enough to be open to well-supported arguments) I am now tempted to agree with you that Jack nested the shirts right away.

You say the following:

>>Seems to me that the fact that they weren't ever washed implies that from day one they were kept together as a special token of that Summer.<<

Yes, that seems logical to me.

>> After all, the shirts being nested one inside the other isn't only a moonily romantic gesture, credible only after the four year reunion, but a very concrete evocation of their very physical intimacy.<<

I also agree, And the way they are nested - Ennis is "inside" Jack as he is during the one and only type of sexual contact I believe they practiced throughout their relationship.

>> It's sexy goddamit, and so while not the symbol of a great romantic relationship, could easily have been an intense memento of a powerfully erotic one, put together immediately after their Brokeback summer.<<

Yeah, I agree that it was very erotic, and in fact start down that path in my earlier post. The trouble I have with my own earlier thoughts on other threads is the contradiction of Jack's stealing the shirts at the end of the BBM summer if he wasn't already head-over-heels in love with Ennis, but I don't see that love as so strong at that time in the story, especially with the way Jack acted in his own life and in his NOT seeking Ennis out in the intervening four years.

Thus I figured that Story Jack saved the shirts merely because they were an erotic reminder for him. Heck, for all I know, he took the shirt so he could wash it and have an excuse to get in touch with Ennis, which little plot was thwarted when Ennis failed to share an address with him . . . uh, ok, I'm stretching this notion a little too far. . .

So anyway, I agree with the erotic reminder part, but you add the dimension of the nesting as part of the eroticism, an evocation of the intense physical intimacy of their relationship, which intimacy certainly existed up on BBM.

So when I add up the logical easy way to keep the shirts together, and their apparent erotic symbolism for Jack (implied, but I agree with you), plus this line of yours:

>>In fact, thinking about it, it would actually have been before the reunion, when, for all Jack knew, his relationship with Ennis was never going to be resumed, that the shirts would have been most resonant. They evoked Jack's intimacy with the absent Ennis, perhaps gone forever,<<

Makes me swing fully around behind your argument (can you see why I write documents and don't advocate very often for my clients in court? Too easy to see everyone's side. . . )

I also think I agree with your nuances added to the difference between the sex in the Story and the Film. We could say, however, that this subtle difference is what leads other people to wonder if Jack and Ennis are indeed "homosexual" since they seem to be sexually interested (as well as romantically interested) only in each other. Jack is more clearly "homosexual" in the Story. Was this deliberate by the filmmaker to make the film have a "broader" appeal? I don't want to "accuse" them of such antics - although we see from the 2003 screenplay that the sex was "toned down" quite a bit.

As to whether Story Jack's love was diluted because of his "need" for sex - naturally I must agree that everyone will have a different answer. Coming from a more traditional background, I believe in sexual fidelity - to the extent that I even have a problem with the boys cheating on their wives with each other. Infinitely better for everyone if they had stayed together after BBM - but of course for many this is EXACTLY the point of the film - society wouldn't let them be together. BUT I still end up kinda siding with Story Ennis in his jealous outburst at Jack over Mexico - because like Ennis, I expected Jack to stay sexually "faithful" to Ennis.

Ought such old-fashioned notions really apply, however, in the brave new world this Story and Film hope to reveal or usher in? I guess my only argument, if we open the gates, is the requirement that the participating parties have the capacity to agree, and that they are honest with each other, in a way at least Jack is almost instinctively NOT honest with Ennis (as I think I say in my post above). But is that lack of honesty about some kind of old fashioned notion of fidelity to one sexual partner, or about Jack not wanting to awaken Ennis's own self-loathing by forcing him to acknowledge he's "queer"? I think the argument they have in the Film at the end really reflects this - Jack's behavior forces Ennis to confront "what" he is that he's been trained to hate and fear - where as the Story fight, by contrast, seem to me more about Ennis's anger at Jack's infidelity - although notions and nuances of Ennis's homophobia and self-loathing are definitely present.

OK, hope this gives someone some more to chew on! Come on, try to swing me around to the other way of thinking - pretty soon I'll be spinning around like an idiot.


". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: I still don't think Ennis, in his right mind, would have sent that post   
by - Julie01 (Sat Mar 4 2006 10:45:13 )   

I just figured out what bothers me about this thread (besides that i have so little to contribute to it). How can a fictional character make a mistake? I know it's tempting to think--what if Andre had forgiven his fiancee before going off to thr war of 1812--maybe he wouldn't have gone to war, gotten wounded, and the two of them would have married and lived happily ever after. But then, she winds up with Pierre anyway, and you can't ask for anything better than Pierre. And she and Andre make up before he dies... (uh, War and Peace). But a story is written with the idea that, given these characters, and these situations, things could not be otherwise. So "if onlys" are useless; they tear the fabric of the story.

It's true, we're dealing with a story and a screenplay-the latter being different, fuller, and longer. But I don't find story and screenplay Ennis and Jack as different as some of you do (by the way, in both, Jack says "You wouldn't do it, Ennis"--although this may have been changed in the actual shooting--I thought ai remembered "you didn't want it, Ennis" in the actual movie).

Maybe I'll get back to this later--and maybe I won't (NO GREAT LOSS!)

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: The shrits and sex   
by - austendw (Sat Mar 4 2006 11:01:19 )   

Well I'm really another David - that's the D in austendw. Austen is my middle name... one which I can't actually abide.

the way they are nested - Ennis is "inside" Jack as he is during the one and only type of sexual contact I believe they practiced throughout their relationship.

Hmmm. I wondered if you'd mention that... . I wondered about it too, but didn't express it because I wasn't entirely behind the idea, if only because somehow the one shirt totally enveloping the other didn't quite strike me as an appropriate image of, er, intromission. But one can, as ever, look at these things in so many ways. Ennis's shirt is of course simply hidden in Jack's (in the story the only way Ennis realises it's there is because it feels heavier than a single shirt would) which has the obvious meaning: Ennis is Jack's deepest secret so Jack hides him within himself, and that in turn within his actual and metaphorical closet.

Crap... I gotta go out. I'll pursue this some other time.


The appropriateness of this thread   
by - Rontrigger (Sat Mar 4 2006 12:04:54 )   

Julie, I'm terribly sorry if you find this thread inappropriate or even offensive. I thought I was simply offering a new insight.

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but if so it would have been in January (an eternity on these boards). When I first saw this film on January 8, I was so blown away by it that I easily failed to comprehend at least half of it. I started visiting these boards and my multiple viewings later that week, and now at least I am not a basket case when I see it--I do a lot of sobbing each time, but I don't go home in a daze as I did that Sunday.

As soon as I got home I sent an E-mail to the closest person to an "Ennis" that I have in my life--a younger man in Phoenix whom I met about 15 years ago. (We went six years, compared to four, without contact.) I told him that the one thing I had gotten out of the film that day was that you should never miss an opportunity to tell someone you love him. And I told him I loved him--again.

Both of us have used the word "love" to describe our feelings for each other. But he does not feel the attraction for me that I feel for him, and I never want to risk the friendship by pushing too hard. (Considering I am extremely commitment-phobic except where he's concerned, I think it's reasonable to say that he's the love of my life.)

But it's still painful for me to have connected with this wonderful guy and to know it's highly unlikely that we'll ever be together. That pain is what I see reflected in Jack and Ennis's relationship--in their case, Ennis being unable to overcome his fears and Jack doing everything possible to accommodate those fears and trying (unsuccessfully) to get Ennis to overcome them. And clearly the particular such attempt we're discussing here had no positive results, right?

So yes, I suppose by definition a fictional character doesn't exist and really can't make a mistake, but within the context of a story he can. And I know I'm not the only one on these boards who actually feels grief for these characters and wishes for a happy ending for them--and also knows that it's impossible.

But I don't think I'm doing anything wrong by analyzing the characters' actions and trying to find the point where my cherished fantasy is plausible. If it IS wrong to do so, I apologize.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx


Re: The shrits and sex   
by - mlewisusc (Sat Mar 4 2006 22:53:55 )   

Actually David, now that you mention it, I revised my response before posting. I had almost TWO paragraphs on how the shirts demonstrated Jack embracing Ennis, when the "proper" arrangement from a sexual standpoint (trying to be delicate here, bear with me - Ennis is behind Jack during the sexual position I believe is the only position they take up during [BBM only? Their entire relationship? Depends on how a person reads the story or views the film]) would actually be Ennis's shirt outside of Jack's. . . once again, demonstrating a "position." All this in response to your suggestion that the shirts were a very strong erotic (as well as/before becoming) a powerful emotional talisman for Jack at least (here we must I think ponder that the shirts may well have meant more to Ennis emotionally than to Jack, but after 20 years I don't think such a theory can hold up).

Then, as I was writing, it hit me - the sexual position I believe they stick to has Ennis "inside" of Jack, and therefore, Jack's shirt over Ennis's . . .

It hit me like a ton of bricks - and I was so into what I was saying that in shame for my "mistake" I deleted those paragraphs.

Your post above allowed me to revisit my thought process there, and I'm glad because when you have time, I'm looking forward to your take on it. Jsheib, when you return I hope you will review this as well and provide comment.

Bottom line: if it was originally a powerful erotic symbol for Jack, WHY were the shirts nested the way they were nested (and a "practical" consideration as an answer is perfectly OK here, IMO - e.g, "because Jack's mom would have left them alone that way/not washed them" etc.).

Could my grammar above be more confusing?

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: The shrits and sex   
by - Julie01 (Sat Mar 4 2006 23:02:21 )   

Maybe because they DIDN'T always have sex that way...is it not as blessed to receive as to give? What the hell. Why does every time have to be like the first? Shuggy says it ain't necessarily so...

I believe to my soul that inside every man is the feminine...and I do, too!

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: The appropriateness of this thread   
by - mlewisusc (Sat Mar 4 2006 23:16:44 )   

Rontrigger,

I hope YOU don't get offended with what I have to say, if the film is so personal to you. . . but I'm damn glad you posted this thread because frankly it's a lot of fun to think about these things and compare them and argue about them . . .

Maybe fun isn't the right word, here, but for me the analytical part, and the give and take and great insights I get from so many of you are so enjoyable. I think for me, I wouldn't have wanted to dive in so deeply re: the analysis if the film had not also touched, not just deep emotion in me, but really gotten under my skin, so to speak. I just haven 't been able to leave the story or the film alone much, and I find that the threads which make me most excited are threads like these.

I also find that I keep reposting pet theories of mine along with the same "supporting evidence" I used before - but I'm NOT bored by it, I'm only worried all of you will be bored by it - because each time, the "collision" of my ideas (or more likely and more frequently the synthesis of more thoughtful poster's ideas) with yours and everyone else's refines what I believe - filling the gap, the "open space between what know and what [I[ try to believe . . . " but I can try to fix it, I don't have to stand it, by posting here and reading what others say and getting thoughtful response.

No one else in my life, other than the folks I've met on this board, "get" what I "get" out of the story or the film, and while they enjoy it and are sympathetic, just don't want to spend this much time talking about it . . .

My father and I are really (I mean really) into cars. I probably shouldn't say this, but between us, we own over 40 vehicles. He gets six car magazines a month (some are weekly) and he brings them over to me as soon as he reads them. We can go to a three day car show and STILL be talking about it two days later. It drove my mother (God rest her) out of her mind, and occasionally out of the house - and almost all my friends feel the same way. They've even stopped listening politely after a few minutes or so, and just tell us to keep it to ourselves.

Well, this is the same thing that has happened to me with BBM - no one around here wants to take the time to get to know the story and help me understand the nuances of the writing, the film, and the characters - they're still polite, but just not interested - like with the cars.

So I say, keep threads like these coming! Already my "real life" has FORCED me to slow down here, and I know the time will come when I won't have all your attention so available anymore, and no one will be around to challenge my thoughts - thus I want to make as much use of it as possible.

I really don't think Julie is offended, but if you've got something you think offensive but you want to comment on an aspect of the film/story, PM me!

Otherwise, PLEASE keep posting threads like this!

And back to the fun - Alternate Universe stuff is a great old chestnut of Sci Fi (think one of the best episodes of the original Star Trek series was "Mirror, Mirror" - you know, with the "evil" bearded Spock?) now USUALLY the AU stuff, particularly Fanfic, is poorly handled and really sucks - but every once in a while (I'm talking about stories/films beyond BBM) it's so GOOD and it makes you look at the original characters/actual historical events in a tangental way that in my opinion OPENS YOUR MIND to nuances you may never have grasped before.

I think my dedication to this type of comparative analysis is what makes me such a hound for the differences/similarities between story and film - not so much for what each artist added or took away, but for what it can show us about the characters we are so drawn to, the story we are so drawn to, that we hadn't seen before.

And I'm excited about the Oscars and what Heath ate for lunch yesterday and all, but that kind of thread is in no way as interesting to me as this one. And even here at Chez Tremblay, there's a LOT of the other kinds of threads (not that I mind, folks, keep them coming too).

Please keep it up! I'm looking very much forward to your next thread in this vein!

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

I removed my offensive post...as usual.   
by - Julie01 (Sun Mar 5 2006 09:58:30 )   

UPDATED Sun Mar 5 2006 10:02:41
So you just go ahead and get offended and hurt and stuff over nothing and see if I give a damn that I didn't mean to offend, hurt or stuff you! Jeez, I was so excited about the Oscars, and now I'm ruining someone's life! How did I get so TALENTED?
"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother
P.S. I just spent 2 hours watching "Gentleman's Agreement," because my guide had Indeependent Film Chanel liasted wrong...and decided I better tell evveryone who says they like my shirt where the quote comes from. Damn old movie was good for something, after all.