TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Kerry,

I can certainly understand why some folks would see Lureen in a negative light here.  But, I'm a pretty big fan of Lureen actually.  And, I don't hold her "coldness" against her at all or even her relatively brusk way of speaking in this phone conversation.  Her life has involved immense disappointments and repressions (Ennis and Jack aren't the only ones dealing with disappointments for sure) and to me her voice and appearance are the sad visual effects of symptoms of these disappointments and stress for her (in my interpretation).  She's been reduced from her "red flame" (red color symbol)/ sassy younger self to this washed out, cold (now ash colored) woman.  And, it's very sad to me. The discussion of Lureen in general, is pretty complex I think and probably best left to the threads that are specifically about her.

In this particular phone call conversation... I really do think that what she actually tells Ennis (leaving asider her mannerisms) is very kind.  She even tells Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favorite place.  She didn't need to do that.  And, just think about how important hearing that probably was to Ennis in his grief.  If she hadn't really encouraged him to go to Lightning Flat he never would have found the shirts. The fact that she doesn't freak out (at all) when she realizes who Ennis really is... I think speaks volumes about Lureen.  I think this phone call only confirms what Lureen already suspects (perhaps subconsciously).  The little hitch in Lureen's voice when she realizes is just so subtle and brilliant.

This is such a fascinating thread and even more so for me to read how different scenes are interpreted entirely differently by different people.

I have now seen BbM on more occasions than I care to count and on every one of those occasions I thought Lureen was cold, aloof and patronising to Ennis on the phone. And I won't even mention the way she summarily hung-up the phone on Ennis' ear, without so much as a civil "Good-bye."

IMHO Lureen sometimes even seemed to almost be sneering. "We put a stone up," she says, as her top lip curls up.

Just my view, for what it's worth. In the novella, Ms Proulx says, "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow."

I'm gaining so many fascinating insights here. 

[moremojo]

Moremorjo and to all too: how did this come about in our democratic countries?? The bible(s)? Certains religions? Or? Invented this? Why? Doesn't every person on Earth deserve to live?? - I say!!

I see the root of homophobic violence stemming from certain religions, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. All three of these major Western religions are fundamentally homophobic, and collectively command the allegiance of billions of people worldwide. The anti-sodomy laws which prevailed in much of the United States until quite recently had their foundation in Christian bias. When sodomites were seen (are seen) as worthy of damnation and death by God, the followers of that God felt (feel) they had (have) legitimate grounds to treat such people in a comparable manner.

An even more fundamental component of this issue is the perennial, problematic phenomenon of scapegoating. Human beings throughout history seem to display a need to regard certain other members of their species as not only different but as less than human, deserving of opprobrium, abuse, and even death. Jungian psychology suggests that this need stems from an inability to confront and integrate the "shadow self", the bundle of darker impulses and feelings which is nonetheless an integral part of the collective human inheritance. Seen from this perspective, the rejection and killing of the dehumanized Other is an attempt to conceal and kill off a part of the Self that the individual or society cannot bear to countenance in themselves. Homosexuals have been but one of many categories that have been deemed, and continue to be deemed, as evil, other, and worthy of eradication.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

  Even though L.D. died before Jack, I feel that, if Jack was murdered, L.D. had something to do with it. Or else Randall got ticked off when Jack broke it off with him. Other than that, I don't believe that he actually died. There was no actual concrete proof in the form of a body. I mean, anyone can get ashes anywhere and you can always put up a headstone to throw off suspicion and all, but without a body there can be no murder.

  Plus, queer or not, even in that day and age gays were making headway in their fight for their rights and someone would have investigated it. I'm pretty sure that not everyone in the Sheriff's Dept. were bigots and hatemongers. Some of them, sure but not everyone. Plus, Jack also had quite a few friends that would have wondered what really happened.

  Not trying to start a debate here. It's just my opinion. Besides, it really gives most of us impetus for writing some wonderful stories. 

EnnisJack

One theory I have developed, which could be answered by the realease of the deleated scenes, is that  he did have a flat, and maybe Randall gave him a ride to the garage. In the clips we see in the trailer to the movie the mechanics are witnessing something going on they don;t like. Perhaps some effection passing betwixt Jack and Randall.

[Sandy]

I think this is when she realizes who Ennis really is ; simultaneously, she is realizing who she isn't  and what she has lost or even never had with Jack.

Another squeak of recognition when Ennis says "we was good friends" seals it. 

You have hit the nail on the head!

[moremojo]

One theory I have developed, which could be answered by the realease of the deleated scenes, is that  he did have a flat, and maybe Randall gave him a ride to the garage. In the clips we see in the trailer to the movie the mechanics are witnessing something going on they don;t like. Perhaps some effection passing betwixt Jack and Randall.

This raises the potent critical question of how much validity we should give to the deleted scenes in relation to the finished, released film. I don't think we should necessarily give any credence to any deleted scene in terms of arriving at an interpretation of the film as it now stands. It is clear, though, that many others will choose otherwise, which may be one reason that Lee and/or Schamus (and others?) have chosen not to include them on any of the approved DVD releases.

[Scott6373]

This raises the potent critical question of how much validity we should give to the deleted scenes in relation to the finished, released film. I don't think we should necessarily give any credence to any deleted scene in terms of arriving at an interpretation of the film as it now stands. It is clear, though, that many others will choose otherwise, which may be one reason that Lee and/or Schamus (and others?) have chosen not to include them on any of the approved DVD releases.

I quite agree with you namesake.  The deleted scenes can only be taken into consideration when discussing how their inclusion would have changed the film that we know.  To actually base critical thinking on them does the actual finished work of art a disservice IMO.

[ifyoucantfixit]

   "Sure enough."  The movie is the movie is.  You cant really add other parts and truthfully claim it is legitimate, IMO.

   I always thougth the real knowledge came to Lureen when Ennis told her, they were herding sheep up on Brokeback one summer...She put two and two together.  That was where Jack's saying it was his favorite place, came
from, and why he wanted to be buried there...What gave him his need to drink...I think that told her all she needed to know..Thus the tiny squeek and the tears welling in her eyes....poor thing.   She lost him yet again.  This time
completely, with no doubts to hold onto. 

[Artiste]

Thanks moremojo!

I see how certain religions  are anti-gay unfortunately! As you say... and stated some.

Last night, I watched again for the second time on TV, the singer Freddie Mercury's life (born Bulsara)! Again, it said that in his youth in India, the religion of his parents or of his area was  anti-homosexual!! So he studied in a Catholic or another religious private school? Even his straight pal did not know that Mercury as gay... and to-day wonders how Mercury could have stood those times in a straight religious school as a boarder. Bulsara went to England... after, and formed Queen as a group. Popular, he went to live in New York City, where I did meet him I think (because I had my art studio since I create my own paintings) near Gay and Christopher Streets... and he was always happy. He always refused publically to say that he was gay... to news media. I remember that his concert in Toronto was cancelled since I was outside there when many of the spectators refused to leave and started nearly a riot... so police was called from all over the city!! Guess he was with AIDS then in the 80's. He did an AIDS concert then on the 80's. From his perspective, I think he was afraid to mention his was gay because of religion(s). It was only before the last day of his death, that he mentioned that he was dying to his sister. Since I see that he tried to make his life (and by that others) happy, yes gay, religion(s) I guess do not want that?? !! Religion(s) want people sad, so to overpower them, so to make money, etc.??

There are some persons who uses such religion thought (as to murder gay men beceause they are gay). Which (such murders) is wrong, since it is against humanity! I say!

There are also other persons who are non-religious who are good persons, but some are bad too being anti-gay!!
Of course, some religious persons are also against murdering gay men!!

Why is this (such murders or thoughts of violence against gay men) in the BM movie or Annie's story??

Why? Is it because gay men are somewhat cutting-edge for love, as for humanity?? Being a gay man, I loved life!!

Jack murder (and of another gay man) is accented in the BM movie, why?

Hugs!!

["Joseph Golden"]

My first interpretation of the film was Jack died in a accident.

Jack was allways a fuck up, i mean he never could do anything right. He could rodeo, he couldn't please his father, he couldn't work out how to pee when he was younger. He couldn't make a marriage work, he couldn't get another guy. Most importantly he couldn't have Ennis the way he wanted him. They only thing Jack Succeeded in was bringing Ennis from the dark. To only lose him again.....

His explained the accident like she was telling a story of someones death, at first no emotion.
How can blame her for being bitter, cold and harsh. She married a fuck up. A men that loved another man. Which she never found put about. So all she has in the world was business, a son that was a fuck up like his dad.
She was telling a men she had heard a lot about the way her husband dies. A men that was selfish enough to take her husband away, a men that never came to Jack. She would have loathed this men. But.......
She realises that Ennis Del Mar is more than a friend. She realises this by the way he talks, The emotion he shares with her over the phone. If you listen to just Ennis talking. Its amazing what you hear?  

The accident it self is hard to believe, Impossible No way

Than theres the Murder scenario

Ennis feared his whole life, He lived in fear. Fear drove him. It controlled. The news of Jack brings on these images because thats what happens to country gay men. Ennis leaned this at a young age. Thats when the fear began.
So first, Ennis hearing this unbelievable story with Jack's wife being so cold. This causes Ennis to have these first images. Why?
Thats what he believes, Thats all he knows happens to Gay men. The tire iron.........
Then when Ennis sees Jacks "Life" this unravels a side to Jack, Ennis feared. He wasn't Jealous as much of he feared Jack sleeping with Mexico boys.
But when he hears about this new fella, he realises that Jack had made a stupid mistake that Ennis tried to warn him about. Ennis knew this and so did we.

As much as i wish it was a accident,

I think Jack was murdered

[ifyoucantfixit]

               I am terribly sorry Artiste.  But I dont think everything that happens in your life or mine either for that
matter, is based on the gayness or anti gayness quotient...Some things are just the unfortunate way that things
happen or play out...No harm or insult or pain is intended toward gays or anyone specifically...Its just life...Unfortunately
bad things happen to good people...Its not always a conspiracy of hate or violence pointed toward anyone.