TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?

[Penthesilea]

Mornin, BetterMost residents! 


First, I wanted to thank participants of last week's TOTW discussion and everyone who voted in the related poll. We got a total number of 50 voters, that's a lot!


This week we're talking about Lureen:

Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?


Was a possible pregnancy the reason for her hurry? What clues can we get out of the timeline of the movie? Although the story doesn't give enough information to answer the question, maybe there's still a hint to be found in it?

[tampatalon]

Chrissi, This may really be off the wall and I thought about this since Angst
put in subtle things in the movie. Ever heard of the "mask of pregnancy" ?
Do due hormones a faint loner-ranger type mask appears very faintly around
the eyes sometimes. It would be interesting to study the early shots of Lureen to see
if this was done in the movie as a hint she was pregnant. I know this is pretty
wild and prolly not the case.

TampaTalon^">

[Penthesilea]

Chrissi, This may really be off the wall and I thought about this since Angst
put in subtle things in the movie. Ever heard of the "mask of pregnancy" ?
Do due hormones a faint loner-ranger type mask appears very faintly around
the eyes sometimes. It would be interesting to study the early shots of Lureen to see
if this was done in the movie as a hint she was pregnant. I know this is pretty
wild and prolly not the case.

TampaTalon^">

Hey Steve,
I've learned too much in those past two years to judge such things as off the wall without giving it at least some thoughts.
I've looked up 'mask of pregnancy': it appears in the second or third trimester of a pregnancy, and almost never before the fifth month.
So even if Lureen were pregnant by the time she met Jack, she would not have had a mask of pregnancy. Therefore I think Ang Lee wouldn't have included it.

But it is a good thought and it might be interesting to look at some close-ups of Lureen anyway. Maybe someone will post some or I will do so in the next days.

[Penthesilea]

It would be interesting to study the early shots of Lureen to see
if this was done in the movie as a hint she was pregnant.

Here are the close-ups of Lureen. No mask of pregnancy anywhere to be seen.
I put up the brightness in the pics, because they were very dark. But I didn't mess otherwise with them (no re-doing of her make-up  ).







 
All pics from stripedwall.com


Looking at the pics, my impression is that she's genuinely fascinated/interested in him. Especially when they dance, she seems to really adore him. Somehow I don't think she delibarately hoodwinked him.

[Penthesilea]

What does speak for an already existing pregnancy though is the timeline of the movie.

The scene before Jack and Lureen meet is the fireworks scene; Independence Day 1966. The scenes are chronological, so J and L met after this date.

Even if they had met directly the day after (July, 5th, 1966), and even if Bobby had been conceived the same night, Bobby could not have been 8 months old in September 1967.

July 1966 + 9 months pregnancy = April 1967

April 1967 + 8 months old = December 1967.


In September 1967 Bobby could have been four or five months old, maximum.

Either Jack is not Bobby's father or Ang Lee made a mistake with the timeline, or he deliberately took artistic licence.

I personally am undecided towards the opening question, but tend to think Lureen was not pregnant. My personal guess is that Bobby was conceived the very first night in Lureens car and Jack and Lureen had to marry.

[moremojo]

Our fellow member brokeplex provides compelling evidence that corroborates what Chrissi has posted:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15379.msg311426.html#msg311426

I do share Chrissi's doubts as to whether the timeline discrepancies were intentional and subtly reflected Jack's lack of paternity or whether they were an oversight. For the longest, I never questioned Jack being Bobby's father, but the very real possibility that he wasn't cannot now be ignored.

So, in answer to the question, I must submit...maybe. This could help to explain the perception that some have voiced that the child cast as Bobby in the Thanksgiving scene does not resemble Jake's Jack very strongly.

[LauraGigs]

Well, young Ennis has ruler-straight hair, as opposed to grownup Ennis' curls. And the child cast as Alma Jr. (who says "bring fish home daddy, big ones" and "I need crayons") doesn't resemble the other Alma Jr. actresses — in fact, none of their eye colors match.  So personally, I wouldn't take Bobby Jr's casting into much account.

We're talking about the backstory of a secondary character; it doesn't make sense from a story-structure angle for there to be an issue here.

I agree that Lureen was smitten with Jack. (Hathaway's performance in the final telephone scene implies possible deception; if Lureen were 'hoodwinking' Jack in the beginning, the acting performance would imply that deception too. But it doesn't.)

I think the simplest solution is the best: "eight months old" just should have been "four months old".

[serious crayons]

Well, young Ennis has ruler-straight hair, as opposed to grownup Ennis' curls. And the child cast as Alma Jr. (who says "bring fish home daddy, big ones" and "I need crayons") doesn't resemble the other Alma Jr. actresses — in fact, none of their eye colors match.  So personally, I wouldn't take Bobby Jr's casting into much account.

We're talking about the backstory of a secondary character; it doesn't make sense from a story-structure angle for there to be an issue here.

I agree with all of this. I wouldn't put much weight on the appearance of the actors. Even in real life, children often look nothing like their biological parents. And there's no point in their being an elaborate backstory to a character that isn't explored further in the film.

And yet, I have seen credible arguments, in addition to the timeline, that Lureen was already pregnant. Let's see if I can remember some of them:

-- Lureen is very eager to get together with Jack in the bar, and even more eager to have sex with him on their first "date." She IS in a hurry! For good reason.

-- L.D. Newsome gives Jack the brushoff immediately after the baby is born and then (supposedly) would even pay him to get lost, even though being dumped like that would have hurt his daughter and her reputation. But Jack's done his job, saving Lureen's reputation from even worse damage. And remember in those pre-Roe v. Wade days how disastrous and out-of-wedlock birth could be.

-- "Isn't he the spittin image of his grandpa?" repeated twice for emphasis. A relieved acknowledgment -- or perhaps a cautionary reminder to all listening -- that the baby does NOT resemble anyone outside the family.

-- Jack is far less concerned than Ennis about the prospect of readily ditching his child in favor of the sweet life, even though it seems possible that such a move would mean never seeing the boy again.

-- Thanksgiving scene: "This is MY house and this is MY child." Jack reasserts his paternity. L.D. backs down quickly --  because they've all agreed to uphold, tacitly or openly, the story that Jack IS the father.

Now, I realize all of these have other perfectly reasonable explanations. Still ...

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'd be in a hurry, too, if I was in the back seat of a car with Jake Gyllenhaal. I wouldn't want to give him time to change his mind! 

No, I don't believe Lureen was pregnant when she met Jack--though she may well have conceived in the back seat of that car.

That rodeo arena sign with a date on it goes by so quickly that I have yet actually to see it when I'm watching the film. Without checking, I won't swear to it, but I think Jack's "eight months old" line is taken from Annie Proulx's text (I admire McMurtry and Ossana for using as much of AP's dialogue as they did)--and the story gives no indication when Jack and Lureen met.

I guess it seems a stretch, but I think this is just a case where no one checked the continuity.

[tampatalon]

But it is a good thought and it might be interesting to look at some close-ups of Lureen anyway. Maybe someone will post some or I will do so in the next days.

Chrissi, Its was just a quick thought on my part but I appreciate the response
and the beautiful shots of Anne Hathaway. They will make a great addition to
my saved movie photos!

Thank you so very much 

Steve