Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion

[Brown Eyes]

Thanks for that great review M!

So, what do you make of the relationship between Selina and Ruth Vigers?  It's hard to really get a grasp on how the dynamics of their situation work... and how much genuine affection they have for one another.


Oooooooooo, and you brought up Helen!  She's such a frustrating character.  She seems so sweet and likable, but what a terrible thing... to break up with Margaret only to marry her brother.  Ugh.  But, I also feel really sorry for Helen.  She reminds me a lot of Ennis (except she has a cheerier disposition than Ennis).  She seems to have turned to a conventional lifestyle out of a desire for security, etc.  As Margaret immediately notes, it's very sad when she talks about her married life not being "so bad."

I have lots of other observations and questions, but am still at work...  So, I need to run for now.

[Lumière]

Hey bud. 

So, what do you make of the relationship between Selina and Ruth Vigers?  It's hard to really get a grasp on how the dynamics of their situation work... and how much genuine affection they have for one another.

I think that Ruth and Selina were partners in love and crime... in a sort of codependent and dysfunctional relationship.
Vigers was older and seemed to have control over Selina from the start.
She probably came up with some of the big ideas for their 'schemes'.
What was that remark she made to Selina in the end?  "Remember whose girl you are."  This suggests some skewed power dynamics to me.

And, certain elements of Selina's trickery with "Peter Quick" and the unsuspecting young women, really are pretty disturbing. : (

I couldn't agree with you more about this..hence my use of the word dysfunctional above.
They were willing to do absolutely anything, it would seem, to get money.

Makes me wonder if Vigers was the brains behind the whole Peter Quick scam.  Wouldn't doubt it.
Boy, I need to read the novel again. 

[Lumière]

...
No worries.  I'll read Beyond the Pale. 

Was meaning to reply to this.. 

You have to read it.  You will love it, I am sure.
I am getting to the final chapters now and I don't feel ready to finish the novel yet.

Let me know when you get it!   

[Lumière]

Okay, back to Affinity for a moment...


I was wondering why they added the Theophilus character to the film.
He didn't really seem to serve a purpose except maybe to add another layer of nagging irritation to Margaret's life (from her perspective anyway), what with her controlling mother, and the unfinished business with Helen.   I guess his presence emphasized the point that Margaret was not interested in marriage (she kept turning down his proposals and advances).. she was not willing to take the conventional route as Helen had done. 

I would love to hear some of your thoughts on the Theo character.
After watching the film yesterday for the first time, I figured it could've done without him, lol, but I need another viewing.  Maybe I am missing something other than the points mentioned above.

[Lumière]

A little bit about Helen...

You are right.  She is a likeable enough character... even though she is a source of pain for Margaret.
We know that they must've loved each other a lot when they were younger.  But Helen 'grew up' and decided that it was time to live more 'conventionally'.
Remember when Kitty told Nan:  "Can't you see?  We couldn't carry on as we were.." before going off and marrying Walter Bliss...  Same kind of deal here.  Margaret was still very much in love in Helen.  We can see that.  It didn't help that Helen was married to her brother and was forever in her life, never allowing Margaret the space to completely move on.

I wish Margaret had found the happiness and love she craved.
I just wish things had worked out differently with Selina. 

  As Margaret immediately notes, it's very sad when she talks about her married life not being "so bad."

I know. 

[Front-Ranger]

I am definitely enjoying Tipping the Velvet. I read it every nite, even though I have plenty of other books waiting to read. I so love Nan's attitude which is so much like mine. Every time I become enamoured of a female friend, I just want to nurture and take care of her and indulge her every whim. However, I am always thwarted somehow. I remember how my latest crush was getting ready for her birthday, which was to be on Valentine's Day.  I made reservations at a romantic spa in the mountains and arranged to take her to dinner a few days ahead of time to proposition her. But when I did meet her for dinner, she spent quite a bit of time on her Blackberry, and then told me that her bf was taking her to <choke> Paris for her birthday. I can't possibly compete with that!! I still think I could compete, in another department. But for now, the jury is out.

[Brown Eyes]

Lee, I'm so glad you're continuing to like Tipping the Velvet!  When you're done reading it, I highly recommend renting the DVD too.

A little bit about Helen...

You are right.  She is a likeable enough character... even though she is a source of pain for Margaret.
We know that they must've loved each other a lot when they were younger.  But Helen 'grew up' and decided that it was time to live more 'conventionally'.
Remember when Kitty told Nan:  "Can't you see?  We couldn't carry on as we were.." before going off and marrying Walter Bliss...  Same kind of deal here.  Margaret was still very much in love in Helen.  We can see that.  It didn't help that Helen was married to her brother and was forever in her life, never allowing Margaret the space to completely move on.

Yes, I agree with your interpretation of Helen, and the parallels between her decisions and Kitty's.  I feel like Helen and Kitty probably represent the life circumstances for lots and lots of historical lesbians.  The fact that they give in and get married probably accounts for some of the reason that lesbian history seems so invisible sometimes.  And, I still think there are lots of ways that the Helen/ Kitty type characters present a parallel to an Ennis-type character... in getting married mostly out of a concern for convention and security.

Margaret seems like another major category of historical lesbian... the lonely, mature woman who would probably have been called a "spinster" in some circles because she's older and refuses to get married.

How do you think Selina figured out that Margaret was a lesbian?  With Margaret's prim and proper exterior, I'd think it would be really, really, really hard to tell.

Thinking of Margaret's image... I absolutely loved her costumes.  Just gorgeous.  And, one of my favorite images when it comes to the contradiction of the loveliness of Victorian women's clothing and the way that clothing was completely confining... is the scene where Margaret tries to climb that ladder quickly.  It's interesting to see that she can climb the ladder successfully, but it looks really difficult in all those skirts, etc.

So, I have another question about Margaret... she seems to have a pretty good capacity for being "sneaky"... figuring out how to be left alone in the room with the prisoners' belongings... figuring out how to run back to Selina's cell for a quick final word towards the very end, etc.  What do you think this says about her?  It seems a bit like an anomaly compared to her overall image.

[Lumière]

A side note on Beyond the Pale... (not to be a nag or anything, Amanda...  )

I finished reading the novel, and the ending held a surprise that gripped me much like Affinity did.
Very moving and definitely unexpected.
I have started another novel which I hope will be a 'lighter' read...it is called
The Ladies [of Llangollen] by Doris Grumbach.
So far so good...


Anyway, back to Affinity & Sarah W. ...

[Lumière]

How do you think Selina figured out that Margaret was a lesbian? 

Interesting question.  I wondered about it too..

- Either Selina had incredible 'gaydar' (even before it had a name).. 
- Or her spirits really did inform her of Margaret's sexuality (highly unlikely)..
- Or she ventured a wild guess based on Margaret's attentions..  ( she had nothing to lose if she was wrong ).

By the way, wasn't Ruth already in the picture when Margaret's visits to Millbank began?  By that point, my guess is that Vigers had already started reading her diary and consequently picked up Margaret's entries on Helen.

[Lumière]

So, I have another question about Margaret... she seems to have a pretty good capacity for being "sneaky"... figuring out how to be left alone in the room with the prisoners' belongings... figuring out how to run back to Selina's cell for a quick final word towards the very end, etc.  What do you think this says about her?  It seems a bit like an anomaly compared to her overall image.

I think that Margaret (& Helen both) would've needed to have, as you said, a pretty good capacity for being "sneaky".
They were lovers after all.  They would've had to pretend to be 'just pals'  in front of the prying eyes of families and friends.
Even after Helen got married, I am sure Margaret strove for little moments alone when she could express her longing for Helen.

When Selina entered the picture, Margaret had to find a way to satisfy her curiosity as well as express her growing feelings using any means she could.  I think she did what she had to given the circumstances they were both in.

So I guess with these points in mind, I don't see those acts as an anomaly.  Well, perhaps an anomaly to the image she tried hard to portray.