Author Topic: Why are the poor, poor?  (Read 164553 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2008, 12:19:22 am »
I agree to move on, my comment was precisely aimed at the extreme comments on this thread in which analogies were drawn to Nazi death camps. You were not the person making those comments, and your reference to possible racism or classism as motivators among those who advocate welfare reform was made in a manner that was well within the bounds of a serious discussion. I regret that you felt I was strongly objecting to any of your posts.  Since I have met you on this web site we have disagreed very strongly, but I have never noted that you use those types of attacks.

OK, good. Thanks for clarifying.  :)

Ann Coulter aside, and the fact the humor is indeed in the eyes and ears of the beholder, what is to be done about welfare?

You asked me to offer some solutions. That I did!  You, and Del have offered reasoned objections to those ideas. OK, I disagree, but I am willing to entertain other ideas.

Or do you disagree with me that welfare needs to be scrapped at the federal level, turned over to the states and fundamentally reformed? Can I assume that you agree with Del's earlier post which offered some suggestions that would reform the system around the edges but wouldn't really change the fundamentals?

I think you're right that my views are probably fairly close to Del's. But I'll be honest, broketrash, I don't know enough about the specifics of Welfare to say specifically how and where I'd tinker with it to improve the system. I'm sure there is probably room for improvement, and most likely the best policy is to focus on teaching people to fish rather than giving them a fish. However, I would not suddenly dismantle the system and pull the safety net out from under desperate people and their children.

I guess I would place a high priority on educational opportunities for all ages, as well as any other programs that can expose people, especially kids and teenagers, to the range of opportunities that are out there. I think what we call a "culture of poverty" is basically poor people being so immersed in their environment that they can't conceive of aspiring to anything better. What is that old saying? Something like, "To a worm in an apple, the whole world is an apple." I know there are plenty of opportunities that I, as a middle-class Midwesterner, didn't envision as possible for myself -- opportunities that the offspring of wealthier, more worldly parents would have taken for granted. Well, if I transpose my fairly inconsequential limitations to what I would imagine as the perspective of a kid growing up among poor, undereducated people -- people who, yes, in many cases have made poor choices -- I can understand how those more severe limitations get handed down.

Anyway. Those aren't nearly as specific as your prescriptions. The fact is, I'm on this thread not because I have some concrete welfare reforms I want to implement but because I objected to sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the poor, combined with suggestions for reform that, well, frankly, seem to me to lack compassion.

I think, broketrash, that there are some fundamental differences between how you and I see the world and what we consider to be fair. I think we agree that the middle class is unfairly burdened, but when we look around for who to blame for that, we point the finger in different directions.





Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2008, 09:22:45 am »
MY comments also were aimed at extreme comments on this thread in which forced sterilization and internment were advocated to solve 'poverty'.

I don't remember anybody actually advocating internment, but I meant to suggest that it was just a short step from forcibly prevent the poor from having children to locking them up in concentration camps. (I suggested there was probably room in West Texas. They probably have extra space on the YFZ ranch. ...)

From the outrage my comment has provoked, I'm satisfied that I hit my target.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2008, 12:36:00 pm »
OK, good. Thanks for clarifying.  :)

I think you're right that my views are probably fairly close to Del's. But I'll be honest, broketrash, I don't know enough about the specifics of Welfare to say specifically how and where I'd tinker with it to improve the system.

1) I'm sure there is probably room for improvement, and most likely the best policy is to focus on teaching people to fish rather than giving them a fish.

2) However, I would not suddenly dismantle the system and pull the safety net out from under desperate people and their children.

3) I guess I would place a high priority on educational opportunities for all ages, as well as any other programs that can expose people, especially kids and teenagers, to the range of opportunities that are out there. I think what we call a "culture of poverty" is basically poor people being so immersed in their environment that they can't conceive of aspiring to anything better.

4) I think, broketrash, that there are some fundamental differences between how you and I see the world and what we consider to be fair. I think we agree that the middle class is unfairly burdened, but when we look around for who to blame for that, we point the finger in different directions.






your statements are fair, I may disagree with some conclusions which you have drawn, but I agree also with much of what you have stated. In fact I am very pleased to see some broader fundamental agreement than I might have suspected. And I have to wonder that if you and I coming at many issues from opposite side of the spectrum can find agreement, then surely our national and state leadership (so called) should be able to put aside polemics and reach some solutions on the variety of ailments that need fixing in todays world. I think that there is a thirst in the body politic for new solutions that get beyond the "usual cast of characters", hence the temporary success of people like Jesse Ventura and Ross Perot.

let me address some of your more important points:

1) I agree very strongly on relevant education for the young, the middle and the aged. Earlier I opined that one of the problems is an educational system that has become irrelevant for many of our youth. I suggested the German model of a two track system of an academically oriented education paralleling an technical oriented education.

2) I agree with you, the reforms which I suggested could not be done overnight, the safety net would have to be changed gradually. The disruption in people lives and in the life of the marketplace would be intolerable if radical changes occured overnight.

3) again, I agree on the "culture of poverty" or the culture of the underclass. this is a mentality which blocks any hope of growing out of dependency on charity.

4) the rising taxes on the middle class are the fuel in this debate. the system as it exists makes the tax structure for a middle class person such as yourself unfair vis a vis someone such as myself in a different income bracket. I am all too aware of the fact that the wealthy in this country simply do not pay their fair share using the present system as a benchmark. The tax system itself is "deranged" and deranging. That is why I advocate the abolition of the IRS income tax system and a uniform consumption tax which taxes everyone at an equal rate. Under the income tax system, the rich will never pay proportionately what the middle class does, and the poor pay nothing or close to nothing into the system.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2008, 01:21:02 pm »
your statements are fair, I may disagree with some conclusions which you have drawn, but I agree also with much of what you have stated. In fact I am very pleased to see some broader fundamental agreement than I might have suspected.

Yay!  :D  Are you listening, Congress?

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1) I agree very strongly on relevant education for the young, the middle and the aged. Earlier I opined that one of the problems is an educational system that has become irrelevant for many of our youth. I suggested the German model of a two track system of an academically oriented education paralleling an technical oriented education.

But don't you think, broketrash, that this is a risky move given the changes in employment opportunities due to automation and outsourcing? To me, everybody could use a basic standard high school education. After that, it's another matter, I guess. But I've never felt that a shortage of technical-education opportunities is a big problem for young people today, especially because many high schools offer tech-ed programs. And they are downright plentiful after high school.

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again, I agree on the "culture of poverty" or the culture of the underclass. this is a mentality which blocks any hope of growing out of dependency on charity.

Yes. Though what you have described as a sense of entitlement I see as an unawareness of, or ignorance of, the methods for creating a different kind of life.

Here's the analogy I always think of. Let's say I decide I want to be a movie star. Now, we know it's theoretically possible, because non-famous middle-class Midwesterners DO become movie stars sometimes. Still, I wouldn't know exactly how to go about it. Do I volunteer for community theater and hope to work my way up? Major in drama at my state university? Go get a job at a soda fountain in Hollywood and wait to be discovered? Without any guidance, becoming a movie star seems approximately as feasible as going to the moon.

Compare my situation to that of Jane Fonda, or Kate Hudson, or Tom Hanks' son ... etc. etc. They not only know what to do and where to go to try for movie roles, but they already have the contacts, and their backgrounds and identities will get them in the door. Sure, they eventually have to prove themselves, but in the beginning the path is there for them and they know how to take it.

That's the difference I see between poor people living living in a "culture of poverty," surrounded by the undereducated and unemployed ... and middle- or upper-class people who grow up among dentists and professors and architects and lawyers and shoe-store owners and commercial artists and marketing consultants -- people who are able to show them the ropes and, perhaps more important, make their lives seem easily attainable.

And our different perceptions, I think, influence what we see as solutions. If you think people remain on welfare because they like playing the system, then it makes sense to change the system so it's unplayable. If you think people remain on welfare because they don't know how to live any other way, then it makes sense to help them learn how it's done.

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4) the rising taxes on the middle class are the fuel in this debate. the system as it exists makes the tax structure for a middle class person such as yourself unfair vis a vis someone such as myself in a different income bracket.

Yes, that's unfair. Taxes aren't my biggest personal economic worry, though, and I'm certainly not losing sleep over the 1 percent that goes to pay for Welfare -- which in my case amounts annually to less than I'd spend on a single dinner in a nice restaurant. I'm far more concerned about unemployment, the cost of higher education, the housing market, inflation, the stock market ... the stuff that determines whether I can afford to eat in restaurants at all.



Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2008, 02:48:23 pm »
Broketrash has offered a solution for poverty...interment in work camps for poor people and forced sterilization...but Reagan called America 'a bright shining city'...I was juxtaposing Broketrash's solution with Reagan's vision.

I think, to quote the Rev Wright, you took Broketrash's ideas WAY out of context and as such tended to mislead.

But, what I find funny is using Reagan as a means to support the liberal argument!  :) :) :)

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2008, 03:48:08 pm »
I think, to quote the Rev Wright, you took Broketrash's ideas WAY out of context and as such tended to mislead.

But, what I find funny is using Reagan as a means to support the liberal argument!  :) :) :)

 :laugh: I can see that you are trying to have fun being reasonable in the face of absurd argumentation. Good Luck!

You might wish to take a gander at the following link:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,14666.msg284972.html#msg284972

This link will take you to a thread which also concerned topical welfare, poverty and the underclass. And in that thread, you will notice postings from some of the same cast members as we have here on this thread. On that old thread, I attempted to also be reasonable and patient in the face of unremitting absurd argumentation. But, in the end, nothing was accomplished.

And in the end, you will like me, click on the "IGNORE" button.

knock yourself out brother!  8)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #166 on: May 06, 2008, 04:22:43 pm »
Absurdity, like reasonableness and patience, is in the eye of the beholder.

Obviously, some of us find the suggestion of legally enforced contraception absurd (at best), and responded to that perceived absurdity in a way we felt was both reasonable and deserved.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2008, 04:32:34 pm »
Yay!  :D  Are you listening, Congress?

But don't you think, broketrash, that this is a risky move given the changes in employment opportunities due to automation and outsourcing? To me, everybody could use a basic standard high school education. After that, it's another matter, I guess. But I've never felt that a shortage of technical-education opportunities is a big problem for young people today, especially because many high schools offer tech-ed programs. And they are downright plentiful after high school.



all opportunities have risks.  no risk, no payoff.


I think that the basic readin', writin', and 'rithmetic that students absorb by the time that they enter high school is enough to allow them to start differentiating their studies. the academically bound will continue a course of study familiar with all college bound high school grads. the technical trackers will be given relevant courses in their chosen technical field (of course business math, business English, some science would be a part of this curriculum as well) , and in some technical areas the math backgrounding might be quite extensive.

but, why can't we help train those who are going to go on to jobs in industry that do not need a college diploma?

why can't we put those kids in technical programs that allow them to intern in private industry with a good job after graduation?

don't you think that the high school graduation rates would go up?

employers would be very happy to hire good people out of high school that they don't need to remedially train. Relationships could be built between high schools and  individual employers and community colleges who would have advanced tech courses for those students to take, maybe leading to a 2 year degree.

I can think of any number of tech areas that high school students could intern in and study without the need to go on to a 4 year degree:

machinists jobs
chemical technician jobs
surveyor jobs
cosmetology / barbering
computer techs
law enforcement/ ems / firefighters
med tech jobs
mechanics
soil management / animal husbandry and management

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2008, 05:13:46 pm »
all opportunities have risks.  no risk, no payoff.

Well, yeah. But the balance of risk vs. reward has to be reasonable. Risking jumping off a cliff on the chance you might learn how to fly is not reasonable. I'm not saying your plan is that outrageous, just that it would require a lot more knowledge of the current job market and the projected job market than I myself have. A lot of technical jobs eventually won't exist, or won't exist in this country, or won't be performed by a human. Will the number of remaining jobs be sufficient? What happens to people who have received narrow training for a now obsolete job? The broader the education, the easier the career shift.

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I think that the basic readin', writin', and 'rithmetic that students absorb by the time that they enter high school is enough to allow them to start differentiating their studies. the academically bound will continue a course of study familiar with all college bound high school grads. the technical trackers will be given relevant courses in their chosen technical field (of course business math, business English, some science would be a part of this curriculum as well) , and in some technical areas the math backgrounding might be quite extensive.

I think I might have been more open to this idea 10 or 20 years ago.

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but, why can't we help train those who are going to go on to jobs in industry that do not need a college diploma?

We can.

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don't you think that the high school graduation rates would go up?

I don't know enough about why people drop out of high school. Is it because they don't feel the academics are useful, or is it for other reasons -- lifestyle, pregnancy, delinquency, parents' examples ... ? Personally, as I said, I don't know. If the majority drop out because they don't find the coursework relevant, you could be right.

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employers would be very happy to hire good people out of high school that they don't need to remedially train. Relationships could be built between high schools and  individual employers and community colleges who would have advanced tech courses for those students to take, maybe leading to a 2 year degree.


Aren't these pretty common already? I know they had them in my high school. It was called Vo-Tech (vocational/technical). There was also a program called "Mini School" for would-be dropouts, and SWAS, School Within a School, where higher achievers worked on independent study projects.

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I can think of any number of tech areas that high school students could intern in and study without the need to go on to a 4 year degree:

machinists jobs
chemical technician jobs
surveyor jobs
cosmetology / barbering
computer techs
law enforcement/ ems / firefighters
med tech jobs
mechanics
soil management / animal husbandry and management

A few of those may be obsolete or outsourced within a few years. Computer techs already are, to a large extent.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2008, 06:12:45 pm »
I can think of any number of tech areas that high school students could intern in and study without the need to go on to a 4 year degree:

machinists jobs
chemical technician jobs
surveyor jobs
cosmetology / barbering
computer techs
law enforcement/ ems / firefighters
med tech jobs
mechanics
soil management / animal husbandry and management


I would not be too sure that med techs don't need college degrees. Possibly a two-year associate degree is sufficient now, but even if it is, that could change. I work in a branch of the medical education field. Even now there are certification examinations for medical assistants--the people who answer the phones and do the office work. The trend in medicine is toward requiring more education, for everyone, at all levels.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.