Alma? It ain't her fault. - Whose fault is it?

[tiawahcowboy]

From the 1967 Reunion at in the motel room in Riverton

"I doubt there's nothin now we can do," said Ennis. "What I'm sayin, Jack, I built a life up in them years. Love my little girls. Alma? It ain't her fault. You got your baby and wife, that place in Texas. You and me can't hardly be decent together if what happened back there" -- he jerked his head in the direction of the apartment -- "grabs on us like that. We do that in the wrong place we'll be dead. There's no reins on this one. It scares the piss out a me."

Later, notice what is added in the narrative:

(Ennis says) Two guys livin together? No. All I can see is we get together once in a while way the hell out in the back a nowhere -- "
   "How much is once in a while?" said Jack. "Once in a while ever four fuckin years?"
   "No," said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. "I goddamn hate it that you're goin a drive away in the mornin and I'm goin back to work. But if you can't fix it you got a stand it," he said. "Shit. I been lookin at people on the street. This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"

Whose fault is it that Ennis is married to Alma? Why did he marry her in the first place? This has to be an argument from silence because we do not know in what circumstance they met and why they got married.

Alma certainly was not pregnant; she didn't get with child until January 1964,

[slayers_creek_oth]

I think when Ennis says that it ain't Alma's fault he is referring to Jacks and Ennis' relationship...not his marriage...

He's saying that the complications between Jack and Ennis and their sticky situation isn't Alma's fault...its not her fault that Jack and Ennis are in love in other words...

At least thats how I saw it...

[tiawahcowboy]

If Ennis had answered his question aloud to Jack, what do you think he would have said.

I really don't think that he was in love with her in the first place. Alma did have a whiney attitude both in the book and in the movie. She was miserable most of the time. She might have come from a family where she had been miserable, too.

I am not saying that Ennis did not love Alma before they got married. But, I have met quite a few (later out-of-the-closet gay) guys who married women or girls legally old enough to be married and they just loved them as friends. They did have some fun times with them. And, like Ennis with Alma in the bedroom, their married sex lives were miserable. If they had children, that was more by coincidence rather than family planning; because the guys just had sex often enough.

[nakymaton]

   "How much is once in a while?" said Jack. "Once in a while ever four fuckin years?"
   "No," said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was.

I read this part of the story as referring to the amount of time it took for Ennis and Jack to see one another again. It sounded to me as though  in his head, Ennis is blaming Jack for taking four years to look Ennis up again. (Whether Ennis is being fair about blaming Jack is another question, I think... but it sounds to me as though both Jack and Ennis are a bit sore about the amount of time they spent apart before the reunion.)

And when Ennis says it ain't Alma's fault, I think he's referring to the whole messy situation: not just Ennis and Jack's relationship, not just Ennis's marriage, but the whole messy, complicated situation. Two marriages, three kids, a desperate fear of what might happen to two men living together...

[slayers_creek_oth]

I read this part of the story as referring to the amount of time it took for Ennis and Jack to see one another again.

Thats kind of how I saw it...it had nothing to do with the marriage but the complications between Jack and Ennis i.e. the amount of time until they could see one another...

Thanks...

[tiawahcowboy]

This is merely a rhetorical statement: I would like to know how many people who are members of BetterMost who have actually known people in real life who were very much like Ennis and/or Jack in their life situations.

As I posted in the OP, the answer to the question is really an argument from silence.

Of course, we know its not Alma's fault that Ennis fell in love with Jack before he married her in December 1964.

I do ask why the screenplay writers decided that Ennis would not drive his own truck in 1963 when Annie Proulx had him driving one. Ennis did not walk off the road into an alley in the the AP story, he pulled off to the side of the road and got out of his truck because he thought he had to puke and he had felt like someone was pulling his guts out one yard at a time.

[RouxB]

I do ask why the screenplay writers decided that Ennis would not drive his own truck in 1963 when Annie Proulx had him driving one. Ennis did not walk off the road into an alley in the the AP story, he pulled off to the side of the road and got out of his truck because he thought he had to puke and he had felt like someone was pulling his guts out one yard at a time.

Well, this question is quite different from the original posted question-I'll answer this one.

 Because the movie is the vision and art work of the screenwriters, the director, producers, cinematopgrapher, composer, actors and all the other craftspeople that put their talents into this creation-it is not the artwork of Annie Proulx-the story is her masterpiece. The movie belongs to others and the reasons they chose to tell their stories the way they did, as opposed to the way AP did is interesting but non-critical knowledge for me.

[tiawahcowboy]

I don't have to be told over and over in printed cyber-text about the screenplay writers and the movie director using artistic license to do whatever they wanted in adapting Annie Proulx's original short story.

IMO, in some cases, their used their artistic licenses to drive completely away from what Annie Proulx originally wrote.

What happens in Texas in the AP version is just talked about by the story's narrator or by Jack himself until the only time that Lureen even speaks. And, when she does, it is because Ennis called Jack's Texas phone number and she answered.

I am not stupidly igorant! Oh, I have seen movies which had in the credits, "adapted from _________'s novel (or story) but, the only thing in the movie's final cut that had been adapted from the original story was the title.

[RouxB]

Okay Cowboy, you know best 


 

[tiawahcowboy]

Okay Cowboy, you know best 
 

No, I just know what I know!

[RouxB]

                                                     

[serious crayons]

Tiawahcowboy, we all have our opinions.

The point is, the filmmakers are under no obligation to follow the story to the letter. Few if any movie versions of books do, simply because books are books and movies are movies and the two media have different requirements. As adaptations go, I'd say this is more faithful than most. I read the story first, and my impression after seeing the movie was that it was very similar to the story.

But sure, there are characters added and details changed in Brokeback, and no doubt the filmmakers had their reasons. To me, it doesn't make sense to criticize one in terms of the other. However, Tiawahcowboy, if you like to compare the two, or even if you want to condemn any aspects of the movie that differ from the book, that's fine and it's your business. Just don't expect everyone else to agree that differences are the same as faults.

 

[tiawahcowboy]

I don't expect everybody to agree with me on anything in the BetterMost - Brokeback Mountain Forums Board. In fact, no one is required to agree with any other BetterMost member either.

I find in interesting here that every time I give my opinion on something, one or more of the members, definitely not Phillip, take it upon themselves to attempt to teach me something which I already know in the first place.

I am not a know-it-all; but, I certainly know a lot about a lot of things. If I had known that I was going to have to defend myself on internet forum boards like one has to defend his thesis for a master or doctorate degree, I would have taken more notes of my sources.

BTW, I do have a BA in Education and a Master of Education degree, too.

[slayers_creek_oth]

As a reminder - BetterMost policy requests all personal issues and confrontations should be handled via a Private Message and NOT on the board! 

Thanks,
Chris

[Phillip Dampier]

I am not a know-it-all; but, I certainly know a lot about a lot of things. If I had known that I was going to have to defend myself on internet forum boards like one has to defend his thesis for a master or doctorate degree, I would have taken more notes of my sources.

BTW, I do have a BA in Education and a Master of Education degree, too.

The reason you are not winning people over to your side is that they consider your replies to them to be negative and, at times, condescending.  I have said this to you before and I'll repeat myself.  You will win a lot more people over to your position if you are respectful of other's interpretations and points of view.  The only one who has all the answers about BBM the short story is Annie Proulx.  The only ones who have all the answers about the movie are those involved in making it.  The only ones who have all the answers about what the movie did to us is EACH OF US, as individuals.  What works for one person may/may not work for another, but that doesn't make that view wrong.

As a writer myself, I know how important it is to win over an audience to a point of view, and that cannot be accomplished if your readers feel they've been insulted or demeaned.  You can win a rhetorical battle but lose the war by losing your audience. 

I encourage you, along with everyone, to stay positive and supportive of your fellow users.  Always respect others' views even if you don't agree with them.  I want every user here to feel welcome and valued, but I can't do it alone.

Thanks for understanding.

[tiawahcowboy]

Apparently, I don't communicate in the same regional American English as those who think that I am being condescending.

I guess that I am just too outspoken for those who don't live in the central part of the USA, which historically speaking is the OLD West, too, and they never grew up around people llike I have.

[Phillip Dampier]

Apparently, I don't communicate in the same regional American English as those who think that I am being condescending.

I guess that I am just too outspoken for those who don't live in the central part of the USA, which historically speaking is the OLD West, too, and they never grew up around people llike I have.

It's not about the dictionary.  It's about attitude.  The reply I was sort of hoping for was along the lines of "I understand your friendly reminder and I want others to know I do value their views and I'm sorry if my writing style comes across as being unfriendly - I'm really not."  Instead we got the equivalent of "I can't help it if people don't read my messages and understand them and that I am outspoken and opinionated and that's the way it is."

We have nearly 400 people on here from all over the world.  The vast overwhelming majority of folks on here get along with one another, and there are lots of outspoken folks here too, but spirited discussions can be had without it coming down to taking shots at one another.  You've seen that doesn't work on the other forums you've been on, and it hasn't worked well here either, so I encourage you to try a different approach.  It would be great to see your messages taken more positively by others here because it would be more enjoyable around here for you and everyone else.  I said that to you several weeks ago as well.

I share this guidance with you as a friend and as your host.  Take my advice in that spirit and thanks for reading.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thank you, Philip, and thank you, Katherine, for your contributions as host and moderator.

I would add, too, that I would hope that no one here would take disagreement as personal attack, nor would anyone respond to a disagreement of opinion with hostility or a personal attack. There is a difference between being outspoken or plainspoken and being hostile.

[slayers_creek_oth]

Thank you, Philip, and thank you, Katherine, for your contributions as host and moderator.

I would add, too, that I would hope that no one here would take disagreement as personal attack, nor would anyone respond to a disagreement of opinion with hostility or a personal attack. There is a difference between being outspoken or plainspoken and being hostile.

I agree!  Nicely put Jeff...

[Phillip Dampier]

I would add, too, that I would hope that no one here would take disagreement as personal attack, nor would anyone respond to a disagreement of opinion with hostility or a personal attack. There is a difference between being outspoken or plainspoken and being hostile.

I absolutely agree.  Difference of opinion is not hostility.  If I said Jack Twist was obviously a secret member of the Hitler Youth and he joined to hide his homosexuality, that wouldn't be hostility or a personal attack - it would just be wrong... real wrong.    But you can still say it on here.  You should expect to hear others say, "Phil, that is wrong" and that is not a personal attack.  If you wrote, "Phil, I have already called 911 to have them come take you away to get you back on your mind pills and get your head shocked because you are CRAZY," that probably would be.

If you debate an opinion, that's fine.  If you want to debate the person giving the opinion, I'd normally say take it to a PM.  I felt it appropriate to bring this up publicly since this thread got a bit too heated earlier and I felt the points being made were important, but that it might be better for me to try and make them to try and establish a dialogue and, fingers crossed, get a resolution.

[tiawahcowboy]

Phillip, I am trying to take your guidance as a cyber-friend and as the host of BetterMost, too. Like I said, we don't seem to speak the same language. I did understand your friendly reminder and I just put my response in my own words. You have to remember that it can be difficult for a man who is disabled due to a head injury to also take friendly correction because he sas also been an educator. I might express myself better if I had someone here with me by the computer who would listen to what I would like to say with the right attitude (mine, that is!) and then I could write better postings.

I prefer to use the word "cyber" because I cannot say that I really know you at all, anyway not well enough to accept you as a real friend.

Oh, I have made real friendships on the internet in the past. I have even had people whom I met on line as guests in my home. We talked on the phone before they came to the part of the country where I live.

I have never had experience as a professional writer but I have had more than one online friend who have told me that I need to publish my life story. A Christian and a "straight" woman told me that I should write it from what she read in my online postings on classmates.com and in personal correspondence. Every thing she read was somewhat "G" rated. She still sends emails about what is going on in her life.

I had another online friend who was a older gay man and we did a lot of IMs and he liked my stories about my experiences of growing up, leaving the closet and my life afterwards. Some of them were more in the category of what one might read in stories like Brokeback Mountain.

Oh, it is also frustrating that I make so many mistakes in my posts, too.

[tiawahcowboy]

Not speaking to Phillip here, but would you other people who have posted here like for me to permanently remove my membership and never come back to BetterMost again?

[RouxB]

Tiawahcowboy

What I want is for you to respect this community and try to be a part of it. To accept that everyone does not agree with you, or each other, and that is okay. To not lecture us with all the "stuff" that you "think' you know. To not change every topic into a discussion of the short story. We want everyone to feel included but you have to take responsibility for why you may not be on everyone's buddy list. Lighten up, we don't need, or necessarily want, the benefit of your education on every issue. We just want to be together and share our BbM experience with each other, and you, if you can join us and not constantly try to beat us or put yourself above us.

question asked and answered

[Phillip Dampier]

Phillip, I am trying to take your guidance as a cyber-friend and as the host of BetterMost, too. Like I said, we don't seem to speak the same language. I did understand your friendly reminder and I just put my response in my own words. You have to remember that it can be difficult for a man who is disabled due to a head injury to also take friendly correction because he sas also been an educator. I might express myself better if I had someone here with me by the computer who would listen to what I would like to say with the right attitude (mine, that is!) and then I could write better postings.

I really think this is heading in the right direction now.  I understand your situation and I don't expect you to be perfect because I am certainly not.  I want you to find your time here happy and positive, and I want to make sure other users can feel the same.  I am not ever going to take a potshot at you or attack you for your point of view.  It is plainly evident you spend a great deal of time thinking about what you want to say here and I know that, in time, you'll get the hang of putting these feelings in messages here in a way that will not antagonize others.  I am very appreciative of your humble and receptive reply.

I recommend that when you proof-read your messages before posting them, just make sure that any language that might challenge another's views in put in terms of "IMHO" (In My Humble Opinion) or, to the effect, "I appreciated reading your take on this - I have some ideas of my own to share to the discussion."  You see the point.  A whole assortment of views get presented, and the reader ultimately gets to decide for themselves which works, and which doesn't.

I prefer to use the word "cyber" because I cannot say that I really know you at all, anyway not well enough to accept you as a real friend.

I can appreciate that.  I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't intending my reply to be a "pile on."  I am invested in this place called BetterMost and I want it to be a great experience for everyone who stops by.

Not speaking to Phillip here, but would you other people who have posted here like for me to permanently remove my membership and never come back to BetterMost again?

Why would you ask that?  I am not running this place as a popularity contest.  I spent my school years playing the Janeane Garofalo role being isolated from a lot of social peer groups (mostly by choice as I was certainly not gregarious back then).  If I posed a question like this, I'd guess the majority of the cliques would have said, "yes, be gone with you Phil... you awkward guy you."  That is sort of like beating yourself up.  Emotionally it would leave me convinced I didn't want to play their silly little reindeer games and I was right for not doing so, but it would also slam the door on me changing and growing and deciding being a social outcast wasn't the right choice for me any longer.

Your decision to participate here is entirely your own.  I won't have anyone else deciding that for you.  BetterMost is all about using Brokeback Mountain as a catalyst for life changes.  Foreclosing yourself from the possibility of using this place in your life journey to do exactly that by suggesting people invite you to stay or leave is not the right answer.  Nobody has the right to take that choice away from you.

This system is always open to anyone who can follow the basic rules I set down.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Phillip Dampier]

Tiawahcowboy has made the decision to delete his own account here.  I am leaving my messages to him up in case he chooses to re-apply, but also because these views are for everyone on this site.

[cmr107]

Phillip, if you're not careful you'll become my new hero....

[slayers_creek_oth]

Phillip, if you're not careful you'll become my new hero....

ROFL....uh oh!  Watch out Phil!

[JCinNYC2006]

Phillip I hope I become one tenth of the counselor that you are....seriously.

Juan

[cmr107]

ROFL....uh oh!  Watch out Phil!

Actually, I think it's already too late.

[serious crayons]

Geez, I spend all day on this board and then I take a couple of hours off and look what I miss !!!

Phillip, I am really impressed by the way you handled that and how eloquently you worded your posts. You were so gracious and empathetic, yet you got your point across. I am sincerely sorry Tiawahcowboy felt the need to leave; aside from the conflicts with others, he contributed a genuinely unique perspective to the community. But people do what they want to do, I guess.

 

[vkm91941]

I agree!  Nicely put Jeff...

Well I also would like to add my 2 cents here and thank the unsung hero of the day...YOU Chris for reporting the problem to Phillip and moving swiftly to control the problem before it got out of hand.  Since you were the ONLY moderator logged on at the time this flare-up occurred.  Once again Thank You as well as Kathrine and Phillip for all your hard work and dedication to bettermost 

[cmr107]

Good job Chris, and thanks Vic for letting us know.

[serious crayons]

Well I also would like to add my 2 cents here and thank the unsung hero of the day...YOU Chris for reporting the problem to Phillip and moving swiftly to control the problem before it got out of hand.

Absolutely, Chris. I didn't mean to unsing you! Thanks for keeping a good eye on things.