Taking Chances, by E. L. Van Hine and L.H. Nicoll

[richardg49]

Hi All:  Also into the rereading, and certainly agree with the previous posters. What I always enjoy is the way Louise can throw away a perfect description with apparant carelessness and deadpan casualness. Like this one:

"This here's a gay bar, friend," Bill said, the word rolling out of his mouth as easy as a prayer on Sunday.

There are so many one-liners like this throughout the Saga - they increase so much our enjoyment of the story.

Can I now be critical? Please don't start throwing things at me, or worse, banning me from the bar, but I do want to make this observation, which has niggled at me ever since I first read the story:

I really cannot picture Jack, up there on Brokeback Mountain, sitting down and recording his thoughts about Ennis in a Journal. It seems so out of character for the Jack we read about in the original story - about the last thing he would do there.  Even more odd, I think, is that Ennis, having received the Journal, would wait so long before opening and reading it, and then only page at a time, with significant time lapses between each new page. Surely the obvious thing to have done would have been to read it through in full as soon as possible after first getting it? Both of these things strain plausibility just a bit too far. Of course, I can see why Louise did it - it provides a way to put Jack into the story. In a way, Jack is speaking to Ennis from beyond the grave, which of course adds to the angst and the pressure and internal conflict Ennis feels at this stage of his 'coming out' process. And it makes Jack still a significant character in the story, which of course is Louise's intention, isn't it?

Ok, now I'll retreat a safe distance and hear what anyone might like to say in response to this comment. Be gentle with me, please?

[MaineWriter]

Hi All:  Also into the rereading, and certainly agree with the previous posters. What I always enjoy is the way Louise can throw away a perfect description with apparant carelessness and deadpan casualness. Like this one:

"This here's a gay bar, friend," Bill said, the word rolling out of his mouth as easy as a prayer on Sunday.

There are so many one-liners like this throughout the Saga - they increase so much our enjoyment of the story.

Can I now be critical? Please don't start throwing things at me, or worse, banning me from the bar, but I do want to make this observation, which has niggled at me ever since I first read the story:

I really cannot picture Jack, up there on Brokeback Mountain, sitting down and recording his thoughts about Ennis in a Journal. It seems so out of character for the Jack we read about in the original story - about the last thing he would do there.  Even more odd, I think, is that Ennis, having received the Journal, would wait so long before opening and reading it, and then only page at a time, with significant time lapses between each new page. Surely the obvious thing to have done would have been to read it through in full as soon as possible after first getting it? Both of these things strain plausibility just a bit too far. Of course, I can see why Louise did it - it provides a way to put Jack into the story. In a way, Jack is speaking to Ennis from beyond the grave, which of course adds to the angst and the pressure and internal conflict Ennis feels at this stage of his 'coming out' process. And it makes Jack still a significant character in the story, which of course is Louise's intention, isn't it?

Ok, now I'll retreat a safe distance and hear what anyone might like to say in response to this comment. Be gentle with me, please?

Hi Richard,

Interesting comment. I am like you, I could never have a journal and not read the entire thing, all the way through, the first time I opened it. But, on the other hand, if the memory is too painful, he really can take the journal only in the tiniest of doses. My mother is a bit like this...she has family pictures she won't look at, things she refuses to read, because it is just too painful.

As for Jack writing in a journal, the entries are very brief, only a sentence or two, so the actual writing would have taken just a minute. And remember, Ennis and Jack had significant time apart during the day and presumably during the night (although I think that changed after the second night in the tent). So Jack would have had time alone to make his entries...and it doesn't sound like he was writing entries on a daily basis, either.

To me, it would completely out of character for Ennis to write in a journal. I can't picture that at all. But I can seeing Jack being a bit more reflective and wanting to record his thoughs, even through they are very brief.

Interesting point for discussion, Richard.

L

[notBastet]

I'm feeling a little anxious and down today, so I thought I'd share a little something serene and restful.  I found this picture and thought the colors were pretty.  It also reminded me of our 'boys'.  Y'all can imagine them to be Ennis & Ellery or Jack and Ennis, whichever you prefer.
 

I really like that cowboy picture, NavyVet, would you mind if I used it for an avatar?

[mariez]

Hi Richard,

Interesting comment. I am like you, I could never have a journal and not read the entire thing, all the way through, the first time I opened it. But, on the other hand, if the memory is too painful, he really can take the journal only in the tiniest of doses. My mother is a bit like this...she has family pictures she won't look at, things she refuses to read, because it is just too painful.

As for Jack writing in a journal, the entries are very brief, only a sentence or two, so the actual writing would have taken just a minute. And remember, Ennis and Jack had significant time apart during the day and presumably during the night (although I think that changed after the second night in the tent). So Jack would have had time alone to make his entries...and it doesn't sound like he was writing entries on a daily basis, either.

To me, it would completely out of character for Ennis to write in a journal. I can't picture that at all. But I can seeing Jack being a bit more reflective and wanting to record his thoughs, even through they are very brief.

Interesting point for discussion, Richard.

L

I agree that it is an intersting point for discussion.  In addition to what Leslie has already said, I guess the journal did not seem out of character for Jack when I got to read what he actually wrote.  To me, the entries were very much Jack.  If the journal had contained very long, very eloquent, flowery thoughts - well, then it may have not rung true.  But once I saw the entries, I could so imagine Jack thinking these things that it's not a stretch for me to imagine him jotting them down.  And if I am remembering correctly there aren't even that many entries. 

Everyone deals with grief in a different way.  I don't think there is a "wrong" way or a "right" way.  I can understand it being too difficult for Ennis to open the Journal immediately upon receiving it.  It brought back such tremendously strong emotions that I can imagine he felt that he just had to step back from it. Sometimes we do this when something is just "too much" for us to handle.  This understanding is reinforced when I see that Ennis can't even read the entire Journal at once but, rather, as Leslie said, in very small doses.

Just my 2 cents anyway - thanks!

Marie

[Lumière]

Hi Richard,

Interesting comment. I am like you, I could never have a journal and not read the entire thing, all the way through, the first time I opened it. But, on the other hand, if the memory is too painful, he really can take the journal only in the tiniest of doses. My mother is a bit like this...she has family pictures she won't look at, things she refuses to read, because it is just too painful.

As for Jack writing in a journal, the entries are very brief, only a sentence or two, so the actual writing would have taken just a minute. And remember, Ennis and Jack had significant time apart during the day and presumably during the night (although I think that changed after the second night in the tent). So Jack would have had time alone to make his entries...and it doesn't sound like he was writing entries on a daily basis, either.

To me, it would completely out of character for Ennis to write in a journal. I can't picture that at all. But I can seeing Jack being a bit more reflective and wanting to record his thoughs, even through they are very brief.

Yay, I love the discussions so far.  Although I have not yet had time to go back and re-read the first 5 chaps. ....

I agree wholehearted with what Leslie observes here.  The journal entries were 1 or 2 sentences, so I think that was very plausible.

About reading the journal all at once, again Leslie makes a good point.  Some people can not handle 'pain' like this in large does.  I would have read the whole thing myself, no matter how painful, but Ennis simply could not.  Somehow, that did not strike me as out of character for Ennis because he was in denial about alot of things .. where Jack was concerned anyway.  And somehow I can see him struggling along with that journal, digesting only little bits of it at a time.

[pastorfred]

Wow! This discussion of the re-reading is getting off to a great start.

Thanks, Richard, for your observation. It's a most helpful idea for us to use as a lens for looking back at the beginning of the Saga.

I think the journal is much more than a necessary plot device. Many young men do write down thoughts, with no intention of anyone else ever seeing them. I did so myself, and when I found my words from the age of Jack and Ennis, I was in my mid-forties, and I disposed of them quickly. Jack did not have that opportunity, so they became, blessedly and importantly, an impetus for self reflection on the part of Ennis.

As we reflect on Jack's journal, I think it's very important to consider that the characters of Ennis and Jack in the Laramie Saga are based more on the short story by Annie Proulx than the screenplay of the magnificent movie.

I want to add my own heartfelt thanks to Louise and to all who are continuing the discussion of this truly great work, the Laramie Saga.

[magicmountain]

I would like to share my thoughts about the evolution of Ellery's character. I don't know about the rest of you but my image of Ellery changed from my initial impression in these early chapters from a physical and a personality perspective.

When he first arrived on the scene, based on the description given, I pictured him as a big, broad shouldered guy with large hands and a deep voice ("a voice as deep as Ennis'"). This changed as the story proceeded as he emerged as someone rail thin, with thin fingers and fairly narrow shoulders. I developed a more feminised view of him based on this (counteracted of course by the pix of Hugh who is definitely less than delicate!) So my mental picture is still a bit confused here!

Secondly my view of Ellery's personality in terms of his attitude to women has changed. In these early chapters Ellery actually flirts with women and even smacks the backside of a waitress. I gained the impression that he liked women because the women he came across (waitresses and Carol at the police  station) seemed to succumb to his charm. I feel these women would only respond that way if they felt Ellery genuinely at some level liked them and surely he would only put out the charm if he did like them. But as the story progressed Ellery seemed to like women less and less and no longer went out of his way to act charming with them. Has anyone else noticed this change and have an explanation for this?

[MaineWriter]

Thinking about the diary...

We found old diaries in our house (it was built in 1803) and many of them had daily one line entries: listing the temperature, discussing the weather, maybe some other comment. I wonder if Old Man Twist was in the habit of keeping such a diary and Jack picked up the habit from him?

Maybe his father even gave him the book before he left for Brokeback that summer? Jack never intended to write anything in it, but then when he was alone there with Ennis and his thoughts, he started jotting down a one line comment every now and again?

L

[louisev]

I would like to share my thoughts about the evolution of Ellery's character. I don't know about the rest of you but my image of Ellery changed from my initial impression in these early chapters from a physical and a personality perspective.

When he first arrived on the scene, based on the description given, I pictured him as a big, broad shouldered guy with large hands and a deep voice ("a voice as deep as Ennis'"). This changed as the story proceeded as he emerged as someone rail thin, with thin fingers and fairly narrow shoulders. I developed a more feminised view of him based on this (counteracted of course by the pix of Hugh who is definitely less than delicate!) So my mental picture is still a bit confused here!

Secondly my view of Ellery's personality in terms of his attitude to women has changed. In these early chapters Ellery actually flirts with women and even smacks the backside of a waitress. I gained the impression that he liked women because the women he came across (waitresses and Carol at the police  station) seemed to succumb to his charm. I feel these women would only respond that way if they felt Ellery genuinely at some level liked them and surely he would only put out the charm if he did like them. But as the story progressed Ellery seemed to like women less and less and no longer went out of his way to act charming with them. Has anyone else noticed this change and have an explanation for this?

I changed Ellery's physical description (sparse as it was) based in part on the pictures of Hugh once he was cast - there was no confusing those hands with the wider hands of the original character I had based upon Keith Carradine, whom I had seen in a film.

The view of Ellery's flirtatiousness was from Ennis's point of view.  I changed the point of view from Ennis after, I believe, the middle of the second volume when Ellery began his investigation, and the POV went back and forth.  But the first book, "Taking Chances" was entirely Ennis's point of view.  Ennis, being attracted to Ellery, was hypersensitive to any and all reactions women had to Ellery.

Ellery's own views are somewhat different, and he himself, whether or not he ever laid on any charm, did not observe this in himself in the later texts, most notably because he would probably not be aware of his "covering" behavior.

Another important point here is that Ellery's behavior was profoundly affected by his relationship with Ennis, and he would have changed how he acted around women, particularly, since he would be aware that being flirtatious (or pretending to be) would annoy Ennis or even anger him.

Those are my own thoughts... however, my own view of the character did change as well, and in my 2nd draft I might find that the "evolution" actually constituted a drift in my conception of Ellery as a character and I will have to modify things.

(I've made a few disclaimers regarding the "draft" nature of the Saga.  This would be a second edit function.)  My finished novels have gone through a minimum of four edits, and I usually catch character drift in the 2nd and sometimes 3rd edit.

[magicmountain]

The view of Ellery's flirtatiousness was from Ennis's point of view.  I changed the point of view from Ennis after, I believe, the middle of the second volume when Ellery began his investigation, and the POV went back and forth.  But the first book, "Taking Chances" was entirely Ennis's point of view.  Ennis, being attracted to Ellery, was hypersensitive to any and all reactions women had to Ellery.

Ellery's own views are somewhat different, and he himself, whether or not he ever laid on any charm, did not observe this in himself in the later texts, most notably because he would probably not be aware of his "covering" behavior.

Another important point here is that Ellery's behavior was profoundly affected by his relationship with Ennis, and he would have changed how he acted around women, particularly, since he would be aware that being flirtatious (or pretending to be) would annoy Ennis or even anger him.

A lot of that makes sense - particularly the influence of his developing relationship with jealous Ennis. Although I hadn't thought of Ellery's charming the women as covering behaviour - just the behaviour of a confident, attractive extrovert with natural charm. I still feel he went from seeming to have a neutral/reasonably friendly view of women to an attitude of suspicious dislike - but maybe I misinterpreted his earlier attitude.