Would Ennis Commit Suicide?

[serious crayons]

Well, yes, and sorry if I wasn't clear, but what I was trying to get at was not seeing a connection between anger over his failure to protect Jack and and a lessening of Ennis's own internalized homophobia.

Not so much a lessening of his homophobia as a sign that his homophobia has lessened.

I just don't buy the "is more likely to require a romantic element" premise. Therefore I don't buy the conclusion that as a result of Jack's death, Ennis feels less homophobic.

Really? Do you think of friends as feeling just as responsible for protecting each other -- even long distance -- as lovers do? You must have some really good friendships. To me, feeling guilty about not protecting someone you couldn't realistically have been expected to protect (because Jack was far away, Jack had free will, Ennis knew nothing of Jack's other involvement, etc.) implies a depth of emotion and a sense of obligation that are more likely to accompany romantic love than regular friendship.

So it seems to me that if Ennis IS feeling guilty, it's because he has recognized that their relationship was the sort that involved that strong a commitment -- again, in my view, a romantic relationship -- and accepted that. Ergo, he's feeling less homophobic.

The one other factor I can think of that might cause Ennis to feel responsibility for Jack's death is if he believes that if he were with Jack at the time, Jack wouldn't have died. But again, if he's recognizing he should have been with Jack, that also implies he feels less homophobia.

In any case, what I'm doing now is kind of like your explaining Diane's argument without sharing it. I don't see any evidence that Ennis IS angry, at either himself or Jack. We can extrapolate that he MIGHT be angry, because we think of that as happening in "real life." But I see no sign of it in the movie itself -- to me, he just seems sad.

maybe I just want to believe that by the end of the film, Ennis is more accepting of himself. But as I write this I'm wondering whether the conclusion of the film gives us enough evidence to make a decision about that point.

I think it does. The film shows us that in the wake of Jack's death, Ennis is able to take steps he would have been afraid or unable to take before, such as visiting the Twists and calmly accepting their knowledge of his relationship with Jack.

And I think his agreeing to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding (and asking if Kurt loves her) shows he has recognized something about the primary importance of love, which implies he has recognized the value of his relationship with Jack, which implies he is less concerned about it having been homosexual, which implies he is more accepting of his own sexuality. That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.

[moremojo]

That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.

Absolutely, and this segues most elegantly into "Jack, I swear...", which suggests an oath or affirmation of some sort. Ennis is a changed person from the youth we first met at the film's beginning.

[jpwagoneer1964]

I don't think that Ennis would have commited suicide. He had faced great loss throughout his life and was at least  on his terms able to deal with it.

The last paragraph in the book"
there was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it and if you can't fix it you have to stand it

[dly64]

So it seems to me that if Ennis IS feeling guilty, it's because he has recognized that their relationship was the sort that involved that strong a commitment -- again, in my view, a romantic relationship -- and accepted that. Ergo, he's feeling less homophobic.

The one other factor I can think of that might cause Ennis to feel responsibility for Jack's death is if he believes that if he were with Jack at the time, Jack wouldn't have died. But again, if he's recognizing he should have been with Jack, that also implies he feels less homophobia.

Ennis understands that he loves Jack and that it is a homosexual relationship. He also understands that he is gay. This is where we get stuck … just because Ennis acknowledges his sexual orientation does not mean he accepts it. In Ennis’ mind, Jack was killed because of his sexuality. Let me try to put it this way … I am envisioning this as Ennis’ thought process:

Jack is gay … Jack has a relationship with a man that was discovered by the townspeople…. Jack gets murdered because of his sexuality ….  Ennis is gay … Ennis hates what caused Jack to die …. Ennis becomes more withdrawn, bitter and homophobic

I have a feeling that this is one of those things that we will have to agree to disagree.

In any case, what I'm doing now is kind of like your explaining Diane's argument without sharing it. I don't see any evidence that Ennis IS angry, at either himself or Jack. We can extrapolate that he MIGHT be angry, because we think of that as happening in "real life." But I see no sign of it in the movie itself -- to me, he just seems sad.

When I talk about turning anger inward … it is often thought that depression is caused by anger directed at the self. That does not always hold water. However, in Ennis’ case I think it does. Ennis had a way of shutting off his feelings (until he reached a boiling point and exploded). Had Ennis been able to accept Jack’s love and the fact that he (Ennis) loved a man (before it was, ultimately too late) … his life and Jack’s life would have been completely different. Ennis realized how he squandered their 20 years together. Ultimately, Ennis hates himself for what he did and didn’t do, what he lost and what he’ll never have.

(I know there are several points in that paragraph that we don’t see eye to eye. But, that’s how I see it. )

The film shows us that in the wake of Jack's death, Ennis is able to take steps he would have been afraid or unable to take before, such as visiting the Twists and calmly accepting their knowledge of his relationship with Jack.

And I think his agreeing to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding (and asking if Kurt loves her) shows he has recognized something about the primary importance of love, which implies he has recognized the value of his relationship with Jack, which implies he is less concerned about it having been homosexual, which implies he is more accepting of his own sexuality. That might seem like a lot of leaps to take, but I really think the main point of the Alma Jr. scene is to show he's learned something from the experience.

I agree that Ennis makes some steps in the right direction by the end of the film. I also know that Ennis realizes his depth of his love for Jack. I don’t agree that he becomes less homophobic. I still  believe that Ennis would withdrawal and become embittered.

Absolutely, and this segues most elegantly into "Jack, I swear...", which suggests an oath or affirmation of some sort. Ennis is a changed person from the youth we first met at the film's beginning.

Gosh, you and Katherine are very optimistic. I usually am, but I am not in this case, How much change is Ennis capable of making? I think very little. He is  a different person than he was as at the beginning of the film  Ennis has found the love of a man that he will never have again and he has faced the reality of his own sexual orientation. Other than that, he is still strapped with the baggage of his youth. Jack’s death only reinforced Ennis’ belief that Jack’s sexuality was the catalyst.

I don't think that Ennis would have committed suicide. He had faced great loss throughout his life and was at least  on his terms able to deal with it.

The last paragraph in the book"
there was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it and if you can't fix it you have to stand it

Truth be told, I have never stated where I stand as to if Ennis would/ would not commit suicide. In reality, I don’t think Ennis would commit suicide. However, I do think Ennis would live a very lonely and embittered existence. His only moment of joy would be when he sees Jack in his dreams.

[Jeff Wrangler]

His only moment of joy would be when he sees Jack in his dreams.

 

Aw, Diane, can't we at least hope for more of a relationship with Junior, maybe a grandkid or two, to give him some joy?

(P.S.: I like your explication in the preceding. ~J.)

[Marge_Innavera]

Gosh, you and Katherine are very optimistic. I usually am, but I am not in this case, How much change is Ennis capable of making? I think very little.

I think it's pretty damn hard to tell, considering at what point in time the movie ends.

I heard Diana Ossana give a lecture last April, and she made it clear that the ending, quite changed from the original story, was intended to be ambiguous. She also said that he'd taken a "baby step", but how much more is reasonable to expect at that point? IMO, not much.

To me, the ending leaves it up to interpretation how much change Ennis is capable of making, especially since he's just at midlife. (Not a redundant thing to point out - some comments I've read over the past months seem to imply that he's 105 years old and has one foot in the grave.) 

And for the record, I don't think that seeing Ennis as a changed man from the beginning of the film is that overly optimistic, as unfashionable as optimism of any kind is in some quarters.

[jpwagoneer1964]

Just thought I would add this'

I really think even though Ennis was not well educated and had few options, he did  enjpy the work he did, like being around animals and caring for them. This and knowing how much he had meant to Jack helped him carry on with  his life.

[moremojo]

Just thought I would add this'

I really think even though Ennis was not well educated and had few options, he did enjpy the work he did, like being around animals and caring for them. This and knowing how much he had meant to Jack helped him carry on with  his life.

I concur. Note how Ennis rebuffs Alma's suggestion to apply at the power plant, begging off due to alleged clumsiness. I have felt it far more likely that he was loath to relinquish the kind of work he was used to, i.e. working with animals and being outdoors. He was obviously skilled at this work, and worked hard, seemingly enjoying it as well. He barely subsists above poverty throughout the story, but he was still pretty lucky in being happy with the work that he did. This, added to his love for his daughters and his abiding love for Jack's memory would indeed be wonderful assets in getting him through his mortal existence.

[Momof2]

I do not think Ennis would commit suicide.  I think he was just in such pain.  The person he loved was gone and what was even worse he really had no one to share his pain with.  He had to deal with it on his on.  What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 

A boy I dated in High School and was truly and deeply in love with died less than 1 month after we started college.  I thought I would literally die from the hurt.  When you loose the love of your life to death it is harder than them being alive and just not being with them.  It is forever.  You are never going to see them again.  You only have memories.  It took me years to get over him.  I am married now and my husband is the love of my life.  It took me a long time to let go.  I still think about him alot.  My now husband knew him and what he means to me.  He is very understanding.  His girlfriend killed herself.  I guess in a weird way we have a "bond" through death.  I went to the cemetery the other day.  He is buried right in front of my sister.  There is a picture on his headstone and it is the beaming, happy face of a boy I loved so very long ago. 

I think Ennis knew this kind of pain and just accepted the fact that  that he would never be with Jack again.   If he couldnt fix it, he had to stand it.  I'm sure he felt alot of grief over the fact that he could never let go and just be with Jack.  So very, very sad.  I think he trudged along without Jack in the same way he did with him alive.  Atleast he had his dreams.

[serious crayons]

It's true, Diane, we don't see eye to eye, and ultimately we will probably have to agree to disagree. So many of our discussions wind up at this impasse over Ennis' psychology.

But, oh well, it's not like we have a million other things to talk about! So, while we're on the subject ...   

I think the views that Ennis' attitude toward homosexuality doesn't change much, that he blames gayness rather than killers for Jack's death, that he's unable to experience his own feelings, that he didn't accept Jack's love, and so on -- those views don't giving Ennis enough credit.

Being raised homophobic and terrified doesn't, in my view, preclude Ennis' ability to change. Many people overcome, at least partly, childhood prejudices and terrible baggage. Why would Ennis be any less capable? He's uptight and inhibited, but not stupid or insensitive. And he has a lot of experiences of the sort that would lead one to change.

Just because Ennis is withdrawn doesn't mean he has no understanding of his own emotions. Yes, sometimes they are explosive, and he is skilled at hiding and repressing them. But I see no evidence (in the movie) that he never recognizes them at all. The last day on Brokeback, for example, BEFORE the fight, he goes off and broods. Not about his lost pay, I'm pretty sure. There are lots of times when he appears to be wracked by his own feelings. Granted, he never talks about them to anyone, even Jack. But we, the viewers, can see them pretty clearly. (That's the genius of Heath's performance, if you ask me.)

Just because Ennis is homophobic doesn't mean he would be morally blind enough to blame gayness itself, rather than murderers, for Jack's death. I don't think he interprets even Earl's death that way, let alone Jack's. He was warped by his father's bigotry, but I think he knew full well that Earl's murderers were wrong.

To me, the main plot of the movie is Ennis coming to terms with his sexuality -- albeit too late. That's the tragedy. He does take some leaps -- TS1 was a biggie -- and he makes gradual progress throughout the movie (people "suspect"). And by the end, well, I'm not saying he goes on to become a gay rights activist or anything, but I think that in realizing what he his homophobia cost him, he comes to some degree of private peace with his sexuality.

Not with his grief, though. Maybe it's just that his grief shows him there are worse things in the world than being gay.

Had Ennis been able to accept Jack’s love

I think he did accept it, completely. Only on his own terms, though, which meant seeing each other occasionally in the wilderness rather than living together openly.

Ennis realized how he squandered their 20 years together. Ultimately, Ennis hates himself for what he did and didn’t do, what he lost and what he’ll never have.

I think the time they spent together was wonderful. I'd be overjoyed to have a relationship like that, even on an occasional basis (though of course, like Jack, I'd want more). But yes, he's undoubtedly mad at himself for letting his fears keep him from enjoying all the time they could have had together.