Why was the Dozy Embrace so sad?

[southendmd]

Ang seems always to tend to make things spare.

I have to recall my very first viewing (before reading the story).  The lake scene argument was so intense, so much anger and disappointment, ending with Ennis's collapsing.  

Then, such contrast with the dozy embrace, seeing them young and in love, and so tender (in a way we hadn't seen since TS2) was overwhelming to me.  What particularly struck me, besides Ennis's humming, was the look of utter love on Jack's face as he watches Ennis on horseback depart.

That face is then replaced by older Jack's resigned, hardened face watching Ennis's truck depart.  I think then one realizes the DE is Jack's memory; that makes it all the sadder.

I personally think it more effective without an earlier DE.  

Of course, later, reading the story, I found it the most beautiful passage.  The story DE is certainly sadder than the film, because of Ennis's denial.  

Here's what Annie wrote about the DE:  The most difficult scene was the paragraph where, on the mountain, Ennis holds Jack and rocks back and forth, humming, the moment mixed with childhood loss and his refusal to admit he was holding a man. This paragraph took forever to get right, and I played Charlie Haden's and Pat Metheny's Spiritual, from their album Beyond the Missouri Sky (short stories) uncountable times, trying to get the words. I was trying to write the inchoate feelings of Jack and Ennis, the sad impossibility of their liaison, which for me was expressed in that music. To this day, I cannot hear that track without Jack and Ennis appearing before me.

(BTW, here's the gorgeous youtube flashback in slow motion with the music she mentions:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi6i8bfwV-w)

[RossInIllinois]

Ross, I just read your post again.  You mean it was to be a whole scene when it actually happened, up on the mountain?

If so when exactly was that?  That's something else that I was always wondering about.

I'm under the impression that it was to be shortly after the first love making scene right before the "first snow" scene to show how the relationship was going from awkward to loving and tender. We also spent almost a week on a scene with them rescuing a bunch of Hippies that got there flower power van stuck in a creek bed on one of there rendezvous. It was totally cut but was an afterthought written by one of the Producers and Ang hated the scene but shot it anyway and obviously never included it in his final cut.

To add, The reason this scene is so sad is because its the only scene in the movie where you see Ennis loving and tender with Jack Twist. He is only at that time and place exactly what Jack always wanted him to be.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm under the impression that it was to be shortly after the first love making scene right before the "first snow" scene to show how the relationship was going from awkward to loving and tender. We also spent almost a week on a scene with them rescuing a bunch of Hippies that got there flower power van stuck in a creek bed on one of there rendezvous. It was totally cut but was an afterthought written by one of the Producers and Ang hated the scene but shot it anyway and obviously never included it in his final cut.

That makes chronological sense. Would it have been between "the first time" and the second tent scene? That would have accorded with the part in the story's description of Jack's memory that at the time it took place, Ennis couldn't bring himself to acknowledge that it was a man he was embracing.

On the other hand, placed where it is, as a flashback that we didn't see when it actually took place in 1963, it's very true to Annie Proulx's narrative.

Still, I wish it could have gone on just a bit longer. ... 

[Cameron]

So do I.......

[Brokeback_Dev]

The Dozy embrace scene makes me cry every time i see it.  I have a tear in my eye just reading this thread.  Espesically the look on Jacks face as Ennis hops up and rides off.  Jack turns to watch him ride away.  We see that longing loving face of Jack....one of earlier times

then we're brought back to the reality that Jack is older and broken i think, as he sees Ennis drive away with the horse trailer.  Thats the scene is the last we see them together.

[Cameron]

That makes chronological sense. Would it have been between "the first time" and the second tent scene? That would have accorded with the part in the story's description of Jack's memory that at the time it took place, Ennis couldn't bring himself to acknowledge that it was a man he was embracing.

On the other hand, placed where it is, as a flashback that we didn't see when it actually took place in 1963, it's very true to Annie Proulx's narrative.

It is confusing to try to figure out when it took place.  I always thought it happened at the very end of the summer.  Actually I always thought it was the evening before the morning that Ennis wakes up in the snow.  But it does make sense that it could have happened between TS1 and TS2 in the movie, because after TS 2 movie Ennis clearly has no problem being with Jack face to face.

But then again, didn't TS 2 most likely happen the evening after TS 1, so when could it have happened?  That would have made sense if there was actually more sex before TS 2, like I think there was supposed to be in the earlier scripts. But as the film is I don't know where there was time for it, so I always thought it wasn't about Ennis not being able to face Jack.  I have thought that it was just a pure expression of love that just happened that way.

But of course there never was a TS 2 in the book.  So maybe there is no way to really figure it out.

But I still wish it was longer.....

[RossInIllinois]

That makes chronological sense. Would it have been between "the first time" and the second tent scene? That would have accorded with the part in the story's description of Jack's memory that at the time it took place, Ennis couldn't bring himself to acknowledge that it was a man he was embracing.

On the other hand, placed where it is, as a flashback that we didn't see when it actually took place in 1963, it's very true to Annie Proulx's narrative.

Still, I wish it could have gone on just a bit longer. ... 

It was intended to be in both spots the longer full version before the flash back version. Thats why when you see the flash back version its confusing as to where or when. With the intended long version in place as well the latter version its then easily known as a recollection of something established in the past. They should have added the scene to the collector DVD but they didn't. As I recall Heath Ledger did not like the fact that the scene was written in a way that made him look like the sheep were more important than Jack. He didn't like the fact that he just turns away and rides off to the sheep camp, but thats the way it was written and they wanted to play it.

[Front-Ranger]

As far as I'm concerned, it was some time after they switched places and after they became lovers, but before they left the mountain. What more slicing and dicing is needed? And, thinking more about what makes the scene sad, I think it is the music that makes it so, more than any other thing. The music adds so much. When you listen to the soundtrack, it is almost like viewing the movie, just like the whole experience. But when you look at the movie without sound, there is so much missing.

As I listen to the soundtrack, there is a theme that is introduced and then is repeated again, and only in the third repetition (the dozy embrace) is it complete with strings and all the instruments. This is the climax of the film orchestrally.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It is confusing to try to figure out when it took place.  I always thought it happened at the very end of the summer.  Actually I always thought it was the evening before the morning that Ennis wakes up in the snow.  But it does make sense that it could have happened between TS1 and TS2 in the movie, because after TS 2 movie Ennis clearly has no problem being with Jack face to face.

But then again, didn't TS 2 most likely happen the evening after TS 1, so when could it have happened?  That would have made sense if there was actually more sex before TS 2, like I think there was supposed to be in the earlier scripts. But as the film is I don't know where there was time for it, so I always thought it wasn't about Ennis not being able to face Jack.  I have thought that it was just a pure expression of love that just happened that way.

But of course there never was a TS 2 in the book.  So maybe there is no way to really figure it out.

But I still wish it was longer.....

It's funny. I deliberately re-read the story before I saw the film the weekend it opened here in Philadelphia, and even I was confused for about half a minute, maybe a little less, when the flashback came on screen. Then I realized what was happening and was stunned--not for the first time--at how faithful the film was to Annie Proulx's story.

We've had intense debates over the length of time between TS1 and TS2. Maybe it would have made more sense for the full version of the dozy embrace to come after TS2 but before the snow storm?

It was intended to be in both spots the longer full version before the flash back version. Thats why when you see the flash back version its confusing as to where or when. With the intended long version in place as well the latter version its then easily known as a recollection of something established in the past. They should have added the scene to the collector DVD but they didn't. As I recall Heath Ledger did not like the fact that the scene was written in a way that made him look like the sheep were more important than Jack. He didn't like the fact that he just turns away and rides off to the sheep camp, but thats the way it was written and they wanted to play it.

Interesting that Heath should feel that way about the scene. Again, Ennis riding back to the sheep is true to the story and seems to fit with the way we see his attitude toward the job in the film.

[Cameron]

As far as I'm concerned, it was some time after they switched places and after they became lovers, but before they left the mountain. What more slicing and dicing is needed? And, thinking more about what makes the scene sad, I think it is the music that makes it so, more than any other thing. The music adds so much. When you listen to the soundtrack, it is almost like viewing the movie, just like the whole experience. But when you look at the movie without sound, there is so much missing.

As I listen to the soundtrack, there is a theme that is introduced and then is repeated again, and only in the third repetition (the dozy embrace) is it complete with strings and all the instruments. This is the climax of the film orchestrally.

I do totally agree with you about the music.  I finally got the soundtrack a couple of weeks ago and I listened to it last night, and you are so right, just listening to that part brought back all  the feelings of actually seeing it.  In fact I don't think that I really appreciated the DE until I began really paying attention to the music.

So maybe the music is one of the most important factors in making the DE so sad by itself.

And Jeff, I didn't read the book before I saw it  and it took me a few times till I got what was happening. I certainly would love to see that full scene.