Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?"

[rtprod]

Okay, now here's an interesting one. 

SF, you just mentioned that they "would fight" like every other couple.  We know how they fight, rough and tumble, etc. 

Is that considered (domestic) violence, then?  Don't laugh, because we're talking about two masculine egos and the way at least one of them expresses himself, and who he is. 

Would that have been an accepted mode of aggressive communication when the going got tough?   

Good one to think about.

rt

[SFEnnisSF]

Okay, now here's an interesting one. 

SF, you just mentioned that they "would fight" like every other couple.  We know how they fight, rough and tumble, etc. 

Is that considered (domestic) violence, then?  Don't laugh, because we're talking about two masculine egos and they way at least one of them expresses himself, and who he is. 

Would that have been an accepted mode of aggressive communication when the going got tough?   

Good one to think about.

rt

I more meant fighting over the dishes, house chores, money, etc.  Like squabbling old couples do.  I don't think it would have ever turned violent.  Ennis would be past that point by now.  I hope.

[serious crayons]

Okay, now here's an interesting one. 

SF, you just mentioned that they "would fight" like every other couple.  We know how they fight, rough and tumble, etc. 

Is that considered (domestic) violence, then?  Don't laugh, because we're talking about two masculine egos and they way at least one of them expresses himself, and who he is. 

Would that have been an accepted mode of aggressive communication when the going got tough?   

Good one to think about.

rt

I would think no, it's not domestic violence except in the literal sense of the word, or if technically it is it's not a very problematic case. The two of them are pretty equally matched, as opposed to one powerful person victimizing a weaker one. Also, I think they would always stop short of seriously hurting each other. Even in their one physical fight, on the mountain, nobody got very hurt. Ennis was angry but not trying to inflict real damage, as he was with the bikers or the guy in the truck.

[twistedude]

Yes, I think so. Someone, or some several, have pointed out that for them to decide to live trogether-that is, for Ennis to agree to live with Jack--Ennis would have to have undergonbe a change. I find Leslie's first chapter of "A Love Born from Steel" pretty convincing in this respect (Jack uses both despair and simple logic to convince Ennis--read it, if you haven't).  As far as making a success out of the operastion, two knowledsgable  willing and to-eachother-devoted men working together have so much more going for them than most couples starting out life together. Why not?

As to the danger, I think Leslie covers that well too, and I don't want to give any part of the story away...

Enemies? There's a Gullah story my father loved to tell.  Won't ell the story, but this is how it ends: Snakes, they be everwhere. Some crawl on 'e belly; some walk pun top o two feet. Now the man with sense, he look out for snake, wherever he shaum, and leave em alone. Sometimes, he live a long time,, but not  good time, cause ever the he see someone, he look in e mouf to see how e fang stan', and e haat be col lika the fire, atter it go out.  But the man who have love, like God tell we, him not live berry long, mebby, but    he haat be warm, long and he live.              

[rtprod]

Also, I think they would always stop short of seriously hurting each other.

However, when Ennis says late in the film that all those things might "get you killed," it's clear that he's not "foolin," also the way he overpowers Alma in the kitchen and talks with his fists in the street brawl.  Its his (only) way of letting out those demons. 

rt

[serious crayons]

Well, I happen to think he IS foolin'. No way would he hurt Jack. Do you actually think he would kill Jack if he knew he was straying? Here's a subject for a whole 'nother thread!

(And for the record, I don't think he would have hurt Alma either.)

[SFEnnisSF]

What latjoreme said.

[MaineWriter]

(And for the record, I don't think he would have hurt Alma either.)

I think Ennis (all three of them, story Ennis, movie Ennis, and A Love Born From Steel Ennis) had a personal code that he would not hit a woman. I don't think he was an abusive husband. I also don't think that if he had gotten together with Jack (in whatever universe we are talking about) he would have been an abusive partner/spouse.

Movie Ennis looked like he was coming pretty close to a punch after Thanksgiving, but even then he was able to control his temper.

[JennyC]

I believe in the power of tragedy.  A lot of great literatures have tragedy endings.   Tragedy haunts us more because it makes you feel the pain, leaves this lingering thoughts on your mind on what could/should have happened, and other things that I can not articulate...  Therefore I respect the way Annie chose to end the story.   It probably made a bigger impact than a one with happy endings.

That said while acknowledging the impact of tragedy endings, I always hope for happy endings for the characters that I become to know and care so much about.  The devastated feeling after read the short story stayed with me for a very long time, it haunted me so much that I felt I need to allow myself thinking about a different alternative.  That’s when I started to read some of the fanfictions. In a way, it’s therapeutic to ease that devastated feeling.

So to the question “Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?”  I think it would have been possible.  I don’t believe (or don’t want to believe) Jack was ready to give up Ennis after the lake scene.  He may later, but given Jack, I think he would want to make it clear to Ennis.  As to Ennis, I don’t think the story or the movie gives us a lot of clue in terms of how he would face the reality that Jack was ready to give up their relationship if he did not make a commitment.  Jack had never really pushed Ennis into that position.  People can change, we make decision that even surprise ourselves when we have been pushed to our bottom line where we don’t have the luxury to afford nice-to-haves, but just barely hold on have-to-haves. The question that probably we will never find a definite answer (therefore is up to everyone’s own interpretation) is where exactly Ennis’s bottom line is.  Also the time is changing; the society’s tolerance on homosexuality is changing. My interpretation is overtime Ennis realized that Jack was the most important things in his life, apart from his daughters.  He didn’t seek change because Jack indulged him.  When he must face the fact that Jack would leave him, he would agree to have a life together with Jack.  The decision won’t come easily and their life ahead won’t be easy too, which is why you should read some of the fanfictions    There are some really good ones out there including Leslie’s.

Of course, this is just my interpretation of the characters and probably mixed with my own life experience.

[SFEnnisSF]

He didn’t seek change because Jack indulged him.  When he must face the fact that Jack would leave him, he would agree to have a life together with Jack. 

Very interesting point!