Hi Katherine!
Yes, it would be fine with me if TOoP/Bruce has that thread and reposted it... I would be honored, actually.... I'd do it myself but I don't have it saved.
You know, I haven't thought about it lately, but every time I think about the Fisher King legend - which I have CaseyCornelius to thank for, as he was the one who brought it up in response to the Jungian stuff - every time I think of it, I get fascinated all anew. And, you know... I feel like I really in some ways came to terms with what Ennis was all about, sometime last fall... well, I'm sure there's a lot more I haven't thought of, but what I mean is that I was so .. engaged.. with Ennis, for so long, and that felt like one 'stage' of the BBM experience, and right now I am fascinated by Jack. There's so much about him that encourages the simple observation of how wonderful he was. That's one layer. But what ELSE is there? On one of my threads on IMDB someone commented that, whereas Brokeback was Ennis's "domaine" or "wormhole" - a place beyond your regular reality which, having experienced it, you keep wanting to get back into - kind of like BBM for many of us! - if Brokeback was Ennis's "wormhole", Jack's was Ennis. And somehow I didn't like hearing that. I wanted Jack to be perfect, I guess, and needing a 'wormhole' to escape into is... well, really a type of addictiveness, which we know he had as well. So... what made Jack tick? What was Jack all about... and is there a message in his deficiencies and in the miraculous - there's no other word for it - role he was nevertheless able to play in Ennis's life? Can we be each other's angels even while being all too human?
BUT... I badly digress...
Hi, Penthesilea - nice to know ya!
I agree with you and Katherine about OMT not being outright homophoboc. And I think Katherine has a very good point in saying that it's at least intersting, that Ang Lee doesn't show him homophobic. Believing Lee did everything in his movie for a reason, I find this fact not only intersting, but very telling.
Of course we ask why. How is it possible that Jack escaped from a lonley childhood with an abusive parent he could never please and being okay? It's not only odd that Jack is relatively okay about his sexuality, but it is almost a miracle that he has any self-esteem at all. Let alone that he is such an optimistic, loving and open man as he is.
Of course Mrs. Twist must have played an important role in this. But: when Jack's immanent nature/given character and the support of his mom were enough to get him through a horrible childhood and let him turn out okay, couldn't it be that the same facts (Jack's character and his mom) were enough to make him be okay with his sexuality even if OMT were a homphobe?
I think yes, and therefore I think that Jack being okay with his homosexuality is not a proof for OMT being not homophobic.
I think you may have a point. I have heard it said that all children really need is ONE person who is truly crazy about them and gives them unconditional love... and there is, also, sort of an innocent quality to the young Jack.. he almost seems to be able to ... well, I don't know, there's a part of him that passes unscathed through his circumstances. I fully believe that his mother had a greater influence on him than his father did. And we really have so little that's concrete to go on, with regard to OMT and whether he was homophobic...so, no, the way Jack turned out wasn't proof, I guess, but maybe a hint... but..
Well, they lived in such an isolated place. Away from society. They were like Ennis, in a way, maybe... never traveling, I mean... not even to come to their own son's funeral. They'd be in Lightening Flat till the day they die... AWAY from everything and everyone else... doesn't that make them misfits, in a way? And as misfits, as people 'apart', would we expect them to have the same attitudes as the larger society - especially when there's some evidence (Jack's comfort with his sexuality) that they in fact didn't?
By the time Jack meets Ennis, he has been out in the world a little, and he knows enough to have put a tiny facade of caution over his sexuality... but underneath that, he seems... innocent. Innocent of the idea that it would "really" not be okay... of course, I think he gets less innocent of that as his life progresses. But still... would he have that innocence at the age of 19 if one of the two main figures in his life up to that point - remember, cut off from society, so they would loom large - if one of those main figures was truly homophobic? I don't know... maybe he still would have... I admit it's possible, because Jack was special... but the likelihood... coupled with the fact that he wanted to bring his male lover to his "daddy's place" to live... well, the long and short of it is, I would rather condemn OMT for being terminally unpleasant and a disgusting coffee-cup-hawker (sooo gross!) than a homophobe, because I'm not at all sure that he was.
Jack's innocence... that made me think of a quote: "An innocent heart is the true wilderness".