what's the point of the job switch?

[delalluvia]

Heh, either way, opening up a can or opening up Ennis, he gets splattered with the results. 

lol. hrm my mind is going the wrong direction, or the right direction, depending on your mood.

It's SO right! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm not sure I personally I would use the word "objection" to what I said about the stereotypical roles, but it did make me feel very unhappy when I noticed it, because, especially in Jack's case, it is stereotypical (like the homophobic "which one's the wife" question), like I expected better of Annie Proulx.

I understand what you're saying, Jeff, and it's unfortunate. But maybe the problem, rather than the product of homophobic stereotyping, is an unavoidable result of storytelling requirements. Jack needs to be housekeeper in order to set up the Jack/Alma conflict. And it's hard to imagine the first tent scene going differently. Though I guess I've always assumed things DID go differently as their relationship progressed. Granted, this isn't my area of expertise. Would there be another way around this problem?

Also, I don't have the story in front of me, so I could easily be wrong, but doesn't Annie leave the "receptive" and "active" designations more ambiguous? I just remember her reference to a furtive unbuckling of belts or something like that.

Katherine,

You could be right about setting up "the Jack/Alma conflict," if that's what Annie Proulx intended. I have to admit I have not given that aspect much thought because, to be honest, it doesn't particularly interest me. My gut reaction is to feel that a comparison or conflict of Jack and Alma as housekeepers for Ennis is a bit of a stretch, but I can accept that I could be wrong there, or that perhaps that conflict comes from Ang Lee rather than from Annie Proulx.

As for the "receptive" and "active" sex roles, my impression from the story has always been that, no, they don't change their roles in 20 years. Ennis is the "top" and Jack is the "bottom." In the story the motel scene is the real center, and that's where Jack makes the remark that I now use as a tag line, that all that time Ennis spends on horseback is what makes it so good. I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." In other words, he's been getting fucked, not masturbating. (Ennis, in contrast, says he has no interest in other guys but "wrang it out a hunderd times" thinking of Jack.)

So, if you'll pardon the bluntness, in the story we've got Ennis as a good fucker, and Jack who likes to get fucked, and nothing after the story motel scene ever registered with me that any of that changed throughout their relationship. That would also, I think, support the idea that they never really advanced from their days on Brokeback Mountain.

And this, I'm afraid, will have to be my last word till after the Brokie Brunch!

[delalluvia]

I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own."

Do we know for sure that's what it means though?

We all have discussed this same thing on other threads I recall, but I don't think we ever got a definitive answer.  As as woman, a man can ask me to 'ride him' which obviously means peg A in slot B.  But a Civil War soldier spoke of going to a whorehouse and 'riding a Dutch gal', meaning of course the same thing, but HE was doing the 'riding'.  So it seems the expression can be used either way.

[serious crayons]

You could be right about setting up "the Jack/Alma conflict," if that's what Annie Proulx intended. I have to admit I have not given that aspect much thought because, to be honest, it doesn't particularly interest me. My gut reaction is to feel that a comparison or conflict of Jack and Alma as housekeepers for Ennis is a bit of a stretch, but I can accept that I could be wrong there, or that perhaps that conflict comes from Ang Lee rather than from Annie Proulx.

As for the "receptive" and "active" sex roles, my impression from the story has always been that, no, they don't change their roles in 20 years. Ennis is the "top" and Jack is the "bottom." In the story the motel scene is the real center, and that's where Jack makes the remark that I now use as a tag line, that all that time Ennis spends on horseback is what makes it so good. I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." In other words, he's been getting fucked, not masturbating. (Ennis, in contrast, says he has no interest in other guys but "wrang it out a hunderd times" thinking of Jack.)

So, if you'll pardon the bluntness, in the story we've got Ennis as a good fucker, and Jack who likes to get fucked, and nothing after the story motel scene ever registered with me that any of that changed throughout their relationship. That would also, I think, support the idea that they never really advanced from their days on Brokeback Mountain.

Well, thanks for explaining that, Jeff. I don't mind bluntness. As I said, this is an area where my knowledge and sensitivities are obviously limited, so I'll defer to yours. Frankly, one of the things I like about this board is that it offers the chance to learn more about that stuff.

So the only replies I have are:

-- When I referred to the Jack/Alma conflict I was using shorthand for an idea about a metaphor that is considerably more complex than that, having to do with a tension between Jack and Alma over the years. I don't want to oversimplify it any again or shortchange the thought that others put into analyzing it, so I'll just point out the thread where it was discussed. You still may not be interested, but if so it's here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=698.0

(But in case you don't make it there, at least notice the parallel scenes of Jack doing laundry and Alma doing laundry. It's not really just about housekeeping, I don't think.)

-- In any case, the Jack/Alma thing is in the movie, not the story. Personally, I don't like analyzing the movie on the basis of the story (or, I suppose, vise versa). They're just too different. And now I realize that in your earlier posts you referred specifically to Annie Proulx and the story, so I guess that's what we're talking about. In which case, you're undoubtedly right. I like to think I'm pretty knowledgable about the movie by now, but I don't feel at all that way about the story.

(To be absolutely honest, though I have always admired the writing in the short story I was nowhere near as floored when I read that as I was when I later saw the movie. One of the reasons for that, I think, is that the characters simply aren't as interesting. To me, anyway. Sorry, everybody.)

Hope you all have/had fun at the brunch!

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I had never really thought too in-depth about the job switch but I think Kea's post on the matter is excellent.

I don't think you need to read too much into the stereotype housewife thing. Although we see Jack as the receiver in sex and doing laundry (if you will), Jack also protects Ennis in a very note-worthy way. He doesn't tell Ennis about Aguirre's knowledge of their relationship, he keeps Ennis' shirt wrapped inside his own, he tries to take care of Ennis after Ennis hits his head on the rocks, etc. (Yes, a woman could easily do those things but when are women portrayed as protective of their men in such a way?) I don't think that the stereotyping is intentional at all; I think there are subtle allusions to competition between Jack and Alma is all.

I imagined Jack and Ennis switched things up from time to time. I mean, after 20 years, doing it the same way every time? I think the giving-and-receiving was mutual. But we can never be sure (unfortunately)...

[Front-Ranger]

First of all, thanks, dela, for your opinion on Jack and the can opener. I agree! I've gone on and on about this in the IMDB thread "Jack was maligned unfairly."

But on to the subject at hand. I think the job switch can be viewed on several different levels. Symbolically, Aguirre (society) assigns Jack and Ennis their roles but when they are released on BBM, they let nature take its course and assume the roles that feel best to them. They are far removed from society and its judgements.

Secondly, character development. Jack is the sociable one, the one who makes a home/family, while Ennis is accustomed to being alone and enjoys riding Cigar Butt, a good night horse, on commutes to/from the sheep. So, their switch of roles suits them.

Jack takes on the housekeeping, but Lee portrays Ennis doing lots of housekeeping too. And when he shows Jack housekeeping, Jack is doing things in such an unusual way that it doesn't seem stereotyped. For example, back to the can opener scene. Jack is opening the can while lying down, balancing the can on his stomach! No wonder he gets splattered with the contents! Moremoje also pointed out one time about how Ennis and Jack were both hacking up a tree--Ennis was using a saw, while Jack was hacking away with an ax.

A third level is what I will call the mythical level where Jack and Ennis are two spirits involved in an ever-changing interplay of shifting balances which is what love is and how it evolves. There are seemingly contradictory elements which become complementary over time.

I feel like there's more to this and I've just scratched the surface, but thank you for bringing this up.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Front-Ranger makes a good point here: we see them both doing 'housework.' That should be taken into account.

[cmr107]

Front-Ranger makes a good point here: we see them both doing 'housework.' That should be taken into account.

Yeah, and isn't the only time we ever see Jack doing anything having to do with food preparation (in the first summer) the thing with the can opener? We see Ennis cooking and cleaning up a lot, but only the one time for Jack. (Sorry if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've seen it.)

[Front-Ranger]

Well there is the scene where Jack is peeling potatoes. You may have missed that Courtney because Ennis was stripping in the background  . But I was very impressed with Jack's skills with a paring knife.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own."

Do we know for sure that's what it means though?

We all have discussed this same thing on other threads I recall, but I don't think we ever got a definitive answer.  As as woman, a man can ask me to 'ride him' which obviously means peg A in slot B.  But a Civil War soldier spoke of going to a whorehouse and 'riding a Dutch gal', meaning of course the same thing, but HE was doing the 'riding'.  So it seems the expression can be used either way.

Based on the text, we can be reasonably certain.

First time up, Ennis fucks Jack. That's clear from Annie Proulx's description of their first sexual encounter.

I won't dispute that the description could be used either way, but do bear in mind we're not talking about heterosexual sex here. Jack "rides" bulls. The implication here--to a gay man reading it--is that Jack's the one getting fucked, and there is nothing in Annie Proulx's text to indicate this changes. The analogy is Jack sitting down on a bull to ride it compared to Jack "sitting down" on Ennis's cock. Possibly the position used might change, but the understanding of this gay man--and of all the other gay men in my social circle--is that the one who is getting fucked is the one who is getting a cock inserted in his ass, regardless of whether he is being taken from behind--as in the first tent scene--or whether he might be straddling his partner and sitting down on his partner's erection.

Some gay men do switch roles. Every indication that we have of Ennis's character, in particular in the movie where internalized homophobia is such an important part of Ennis's make-up, suggests that he is not one of those gay men who switch roles. For Ennis, especially "Movie Ennis," to take Jack's cock up his own ass would have made him "queer." It just didn't happen.

Any other gay men care to "ride" this one?