Author Topic: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?  (Read 20193 times)

Offline ednbarby

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2006, 02:48:37 pm »
*Very* well-said, Nic.  I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head, there.  Beautiful.

And as for what I was saying about Ennis not expressing himself more, I think I always feel so sad for Jack in that "I dunno" scene because I always see him closing his eyes a little tighter there in response.  But I think I may have misread that.  Now, I'm thinking it's not in response to Ennis' non-answer but kind of in preparation for what he's about to say, which is "Brokeback got us good, don't it?"  I think you're all absolutely right - Jack knew Ennis loved him - it's why he kept on keeping on with him for so long - it's why any of us in that situation do - either out of knowledge that he loves us or in the hope that he might.  In their case, I do think he knew.  And as was said before, his frustration wasn't in Ennis not expressing it better, because of course he loved Ennis absolutely the way he was, and that kind of expression wasn't something he was capable of.  It was in his inability to make that leap to building a life with him, together, as Jack wanted.

Have I mentioned yet today how much I love this movie?  And you guys?
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Offline nic

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2006, 04:11:44 pm »
*Very* well-said, Nic.  I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head, there.  Beautiful.

And as for what I was saying about Ennis not expressing himself more, I think I always feel so sad for Jack in that "I dunno" scene because I always see him closing his eyes a little tighter there in response.  But I think I may have misread that.  Now, I'm thinking it's not in response to Ennis' non-answer but kind of in preparation for what he's about to say, which is "Brokeback got us good, don't it?"  I think you're all absolutely right - Jack knew Ennis loved him - it's why he kept on keeping on with him for so long - it's why any of us in that situation do - either out of knowledge that he loves us or in the hope that he might.  In their case, I do think he knew.  And as was said before, his frustration wasn't in Ennis not expressing it better, because of course he loved Ennis absolutely the way he was, and that kind of expression wasn't something he was capable of.  It was in his inability to make that leap to building a life with him, together, as Jack wanted.

Have I mentioned yet today how much I love this movie?  And you guys?

Thanks!  It was a ramble about something I feel, rather than think.  Glad it made some sense to you.

Yep, Jack kept on with Ennis because of love.  Even in relationships that are genuinely falling apart, both partners can still be a bit in love with the other and that is why some endings of relationships get long & drawn out & are so painful.  This was beginning to happen in the end with J & E to a small extent, but that is another discussion.

nic
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2006, 06:04:13 pm »
And that's why I think I find BBM so romantic - I associate J & E with falling & being in love.  It evokes those feelings again & the passions that fortunately I have experienced in my life.  It's a credit to Heath & Jake that they were able to convey it so well, especially to a (mainly) straight woman like myself. 

Thanks for your thoughts here nic, and I agree with you.  You know it's crossed my mind from time to time why this relationship (Jack & Ennis) works for straight women.  In general (forgive me please), I am of the understanding that most women are not "turned on" by gay sex, although that might be more about male's preoccupation with pornography.  Do you think BBM is accessible to women simply because of the romance angle?  Is this all that was needed to override any issues of gender/orientation?  Can this also be used to define the level of enjoyment for BBM?  That is, is an appreciation of romance in a film or a desire for romance in life a character trait for a Brokaholic, distinguishing them from the "it was just ok" or "didn't like it" demographics?
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2006, 06:15:58 pm »
Thanks for your thoughts here nic, and I agree with you.  You know it's crossed my mind from time to time why this relationship (Jack & Ennis) works for straight women.  In general (forgive me please), I am of the understanding that most women are not "turned on" by gay sex, although that might be more about male's preoccupation with pornography.  Do you think BBM is accessible to women simply because of the romance angle?  Is this all that was needed to override any issues of gender/orientation?  Can this also be used to define the level of enjoyment for BBM?  That is, is an appreciation of romance in a film or a desire for romance in life a character trait for a Brokaholic, distinguishing them from the "it was just ok" or "didn't like it" demographics?

Ooh - meaty discussion, here.  :)  Well, speaking just for myself, I actually *am* turned on by gay sex, just as I'm turned on by straight sex and lesbian sex, *when* it's shown between two partners who appear to be very deeply in love with each other.  I'm not turned on by pornographic sex of any kind - it only hits me where I live when I can feel their love for one another.  You know?  When it's truly intimate - that's what's erotic to me.  That's why I love kissing scenes most of all when they're done right and the chemistry is real between the actors - because I think kissing is *much* more intimate than just the act itself, regardless of whether the act is gay, straight or lesbian.  That's why the reunion kiss (and their very first kiss) rocks my world and gives me the hands-free sensation every time.  Because it's intimate, and it's real.  But I must also say that their first consummation turns me on, too, because there's so much very believable passion in it.

And as far as the romance angle, I think it's safe to say that women as a rule are much more into love stories than straight men.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 09:02:04 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2006, 08:43:33 pm »
Well, I'm a gay woman and while I don't get *turned on* so to speak by two guys being intimate... I completely love and adore the fact that this is a powerful and amazing gay romance.  I think our boys are adorable and I love to see them *being together* but my reaction to all this is on a level that I really can't explain.  I think that's a huge part of the reason why I am so preoccupied with the movie. 
 :-\ :D
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2006, 09:08:23 pm »
Well, I'm a gay woman and while I don't get *turned on* so to speak by two guys being intimate... I completely love and adore the fact that this is a powerful and amazing gay romance.  I think our boys are adorable and I love to see them *being together* but my reaction to all this is on a level that I really can't explain.  I think that's a huge part of the reason why I am so preoccupied with the movie. 
 :-\ :D

You know, Amanda, I do think that those of us who respond to this movie like we do are responding to it on a very primal level.  You're right - it is very difficult to put it into words.  My husband responded to it on that level, I think, and I doubt very much that he's turned on by gay sex per ce.  (But, hey, I've been wrong about him before.)

I think that for straight/bi women and gay men, there is certainly an element of empathizing on the level of knowing what it is to be passionately in love with a man.  But I don't think it's the only element - it can't be, or straight men and gay women wouldn't be moved by it like so many are.  Perhaps it is the universal aspect of missed opportunities, of fear holding us back from being all we could be, so to speak.  But, just like you, I think there's more to it than that.  I can't quite put a finger on it, but I think it has to do with the idea or memory of finding that one person in a million with whom you can be utterly yourself and then the idea or memory of losing such a person forever when you had it in your power not to that's what cut my husband (and me, come to think of it) to the core.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2006, 12:18:48 am »
Hey there Amanda & Barb, I must say that I take some pride in the fact that I asked a question you couldn't immediately answer!  :D  I think the two of you are right up there in the expert category (as far as I am concerned) when it comes to understanding all the nuances of this film, particularly in terms of artistic merit, aesthetics, and symbology, so it intrigues me to think about all these elements add up to affect you (and us all) on a personal level.

Within this context of this discussion, I'm not convinced that it is merely about being able to identify with the missed opportunities of the characters, etc, etc.  I'm happy to accept that there are primal responses involved that go beyond gender and orientation, but are we saying that romance *is* primal?  Or put another way, is there a fundamental need by humans to love and be loved that goes beyond sexuality?  I certainly believe this is true for me, but I wonder if I would feel the same if it were two women, or a man and a woman?  Being a gay man I'm not sure I could (a humble admission).   Note we have to suspend the "unattainable element" aspect of the BBM for a moment (at least for a straight version).

What are your thoughts?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2006, 12:44:14 am »
You know it's crossed my mind from time to time why this relationship (Jack & Ennis) works for straight women.  In general (forgive me please), I am of the understanding that most women are not "turned on" by gay sex, although that might be more about male's preoccupation with pornography.  Do you think BBM is accessible to women simply because of the romance angle?  Is this all that was needed to override any issues of gender/orientation?

I'm glad you asked this, Chris, because this has been an intriguing part of the experience for me. It IS difficult to explain, but I will try. I was surprised myself that I found the love scenes so thrilling. For one thing, I'm usually not hugely interested in watching people of any orientation have sex unless one of the people is me. I don't find most movie sex scenes sexy. I only do if a) they're very aesthetically appealing: beautiful lighting and cinematography, beautiful actors (yes, I'm shallow), etc. AND b) the backstory is engaging -- usually that means romantic, and c) they are convincingly passionate (which right there excludes 90 percent of movies). Frankly, I did expect to find this one even less exciting than usual. I've never felt particularly interested in watching gay men together, no offense to anyone, not because I'm homophobic (I hope) but because that seems like something that by definition wouldn't include me. Also, when I HAVE felt engaged in love scenes in straight movies, I assumed it was because I identified with Julia or Gwyneth or whoever -- I put myself in the woman's place, she's my portal into the scene. With this there'd be no portal.

So anyway, obviously I was wrong. Brokeback passes all those tests for me. Aesthetic appeal? Check. Romantic story? Check. Convincingly passionate? Man, that's for sure. And as far as being able to put myself into the scene, turns out gender doesn't matter for this, so this movie actually TWICE as many portals, twice as many ways to be drawn in as straight movies do. When I previously assumed I was identifying with the actress as a fellow woman (so to speak), I now realize that actually I was putting myself in her place simply because I was attracted to the man. With Brokeback, I can put myself in either place and still have fun! And as for feeling drawn into the scene, hard to feel otherwise when the camera moves in so close you can see spit strings! I'm THERE.

Yes, it's unrealistic: I couldn't actually BE part of that scene because I'm female. On the other hand, I also couldn't be there because it's fictional and I'm allergic to horses. So what's the difference?

So that's what I learned about myself. That I actually CAN find movie sex scenes sexy regardless of orientation as long as they a) are well filmed, b) romantic, c) passionate and d) star Heath and Jake.

PS While I was writing this, you posted again, Chris. I've already droned on for a long time (I always feel like such a thread hog!), but my first thoughts are: certainly I think there is a fundamental need for humans to love that goes beyond sexuality. I would think anybody could connect with this movie in that way. But if you ask why I find the love scenes so erotic, well, there's my answer.

But also, I've wondered if, since 99.9999 percent of the movies ever made have featured straight characters, are gay people able to put themselves into those scenes? In other words, could you go through my process in reverse (reducing from two portals to one, unfortunately)? (BTW, in case anybody questions this, yes, that means men would have to put themselves in the actress' place and women the actor's. But again, what matters is not which person you IDENTIFY with, but which person you would rather TAKE THE PLACE OF.)



Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2006, 02:13:02 am »
PS While I was writing this, you posted again, Chris. I've already droned on for a long time (I always feel like such a thread hog!), but my first thoughts are: certainly I think there is a fundamental need for humans to love that goes beyond sexuality. I would think anybody could connect with this movie in that way. But if you ask why I find the love scenes so erotic, well, there's my answer.

But also, I've wondered if, since 99.9999 percent of the movies ever made have featured straight characters, are gay people able to put themselves into those scenes? In other words, could you go through my process in reverse (reducing from two portals to one, unfortunately)? (BTW, in case anybody questions this, yes, that means men would have to put themselves in the actress' place and women the actor's. But again, what matters is not which person you IDENTIFY with, but which person you would rather TAKE THE PLACE OF.)

Hey there Katherine, great post, exactly the sort of thing I was looking to talk about.  And I love that you're [occasionally] a thread hog, because everything you write has such substance - or maybe because I tend to agree with you - anyway, whatever hog away my dear!  ;)

Anyway, thanks for flipping it around on me.  I guess I first have to eliminate the same 99.9% of sex scenes that you do.  Rarely are they sexy for me, they seem abstractly stuck on because of some formulaic need to have them there.  Ironically, most non-romance films still "need" to have a sex scene.  To be honest, off the top of my head I can't think of a single sex scene that I actually find erotic.  I'm sure I have, I just can't think of any.  They always seem more like a plot device than about eroticism.

Ok, to make this work for me I need expand this into general romance (kissing etc) in order for me to identify with it.  I think the easy answer is that I mostly identify with [or take the place of] the woman in the scene.  It's actually a little tricky though for much the same reason that you could never have a relationship with Jack & Ennis, being female and all.  In straight films I have the same problem.  I guess, like you in Brokeback, I simply suspend disbelief momentarily and dive in as if I *was* a woman.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2006, 07:52:47 am »
That's an excellent point, Katherine - I think the love scenes are so thrilling for me for primarily the same reason.  I can identify with both characters at once, and so I can imagine myself in either of their places in any given, uh, time.

And Chris, I do think that we do have a need for love as human beings that goes beyond sex.  Since I tend to see everything from an evolutionary standpoint, that need makes sense in that as human beings, our survival rates are probably higher when we mate for life.  And in order to mate for life, there needs to be something more there than great sex.  Physical passion fades over time, and if you then find you're with someone you can't stand talking to, it all goes out the window.

Like I said before, love to me is finding that one in million with whom you can be utterly yourself.  I think we all need to make that connection - to find the other half of our souls - because perhaps without it, our survival as a species would have been tenuous.  I mean, imagine if there were no such thing as that kind of love.  If we all walked around never finding or having a life partner.  Or even a series of long-term life partners.  I really don't see how we could have survived over the ages without it.  And it's not just about stronger men protecting weaker women.  It's not about that much at all.  It's about feeling like we're a part of something bigger than we are as individuals.  It's faith personified.  I do think we need that.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 07:56:54 am by ednbarby »
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