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[littledarlin]

Hiya little

How are those countries going to improve if their citizens don't have to stay and face up to their unsatisfactory governments?

no idea.  we'll see when it happens.  some countries use the voting process, some countries revolt.

How could you decide that though?  How can you tell the family of that one person who was brutally murdered - "We're really sorry about that, but hey 100 other people did well, so it's OK if your loved one was tortured to death leaving their children father/motherless"?

but it goes both ways.  how could you turn away someone who is starving to death or whose kids are starving to death or whatever the case may be?  this goes back to does the end justify the means.  who knows.

How about the women tortured and killed in Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan?  The people imprisoned in China?  The children who disappeared in Chile/Columbia?  The 10s of thousands dying every day in Africa?   

Are we going to be an open door for EVERY persecuted person?  There would be no room left to stand.

YES!  if someone is seeking refuge here, they should be more than welcome to.  the only reason more people DON'T is because it is so hard to get here from asia, africa, south america, etc.  we have no right to say one persons life is more valuable than the other and we shouldn't have to make a choice.  we should help everyone we can, everyone who WANTS help. 

if the day comes when the religious right takes over, and start burning gays at the stake, i would absolutely flee to anywhere i could.  sometimes it's just not as simple as standing up to your government.  i do my best to stay here and change things for the better in the ways i can, but things keep getting worse.  there's going to come a point where i say fuck this, i'm sick of being treated like a second class citizen, and move to a country that accepts gays as equals.  will i go through the legal process?  yes, but i have the resources to do so.  for now.  but who knows what's going to happen.

[rtprod]

How are those countries going to improve if their citizens don't have to stay and face up to their unsatisfactory governments?

If this isn't a fantasy of misplaced idealism then I don't know what is.  What should they do, go to City Hall?  lol

Good lord, they can't even stand up to make 30 bucks a week -- the governments are loaded with corruption and they are poverty stricken. 

Is that comment for real?

rt

[rtprod]

Del, no, I'm not rich.  But I do see sweeping social issues as greater than black and white. 

My own dishes?  I'm talking about in restaurants.

My own laundry?  I'm talking about dry cleaners.

I don't know where you come from, but the economy in this major city would collapse tomorrow, and everyone here knows it, if we removed the contributions of undocumented workers. 

This is true -- by the way, ever see the great movie Bread and Roses by Ken Loach, starring Adrien Brody?  Or have you seen Maria Full of Grace?  Can you take a compassionate perspective on those characters at all?

rt

[littledarlin]

Del, no, I'm not rich.  But I do see sweeping social issues as greater than black and white. 

I don't know where you come from, but the economy in this major city would collapse tomorrow, and everyone here knows it, if we removed the contributions of undocumented workers. 

rt

same here, rt.  the city of chicago, and most of the suburbs, have a huge base of immigrants.  that's why it's baffling to me to see people react this way.  everything is relative.  the point i was trying to make was that you can not judge an entire group of people by the actions of a small portion of that group.  i don't see immigrants without papers as criminals, i see the actions taken against them as criminal, as far as work conditions, healthcare, etc.  the problem lies within the process, not the immigrants themselves.

[rtprod]

same here, rt.  the city of chicago, and most of the suburbs, have a huge base of immigrants.  that's why it's baffling to me to see people react this way.  everything is relative.  the point i was trying to make was that you can not judge an entire group of people by the actions of a small portion of that group.  i don't see immigrants without papers as criminals, i see the actions taken against them as criminal, as far as work conditions, healthcare, etc.  the problem lies within the process, not the immigrants themselves.

I hear you.  Everyone I know here in this city, Repub or Dem, feels that this situation is in some way unfair and needs to be adjusted. 

rt

[delalluvia]

Hi little

YES!  if someone is seeking refuge here, they should be more than welcome to.  the only reason more people DON'T is because it is so hard to get here from asia, africa, south america, etc.  we have no right to say one persons life is more valuable than the other and we shouldn't have to make a choice.  we should help everyone we can, everyone who WANTS help.

So the U.S. is a charitable organization now?

if the day comes when the religious right takes over, and start burning gays at the stake, i would absolutely flee to anywhere i could.  sometimes it's just not as simple as standing up to your government.  i do my best to stay here and change things for the better in the ways i can, but things keep getting worse.  there's going to come a point where i say fuck this, i'm sick of being treated like a second class citizen, and move to a country that accepts gays as equals.  will i go through the legal process?  yes, but i have the resources to do so.  for now.  but who knows what's going to happen.

You know, this can turn on its head.  In this country gay rights are being pushed forward by the left, generally.  In the southwest of America, the HIspanic population is growing by leaps and bounds.  I think it was said recently that the Hispanic population is now the majority in some areas.  I'm sure that is also due some to immigration.

Many of them are Catholic and are quite used to religion mixing with politics.  And if naturalized will become voters.  Not sure which way they would vote on such legislative moral and gender issues, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

How are those countries going to improve if their citizens don't have to stay and face up to their unsatisfactory governments?

If this isn't idealism then I don't know what is.

Good lord, they can't even stand up to make 30 bucks a week -- the governments are loaded with corruption and they are poverty stricken.

Is that comment for real?

Er, yeah.  After all Mexico has had quite a few revolutions in the last two centuries.  Was it just the wealthy fighting?  I don't think so.

We had a revolution in this country and in France as well.  They had an almost bloodless apartheid system change in South Africa.

Were only the well-heeled and employed doing the revolting?

Del, no, I'm not rich.  But I do see sweeping social issues as greater than black and white.

My own dishes?  I'm talking about in restaurants.

My own laundry?  I'm talking about dry cleaners.

I don't know where you come from, but the economy in this major city would collapse tomorrow, and everyone here knows it, if we removed the contributions of undocumented workers.

Did it collapse when the immigrants walked out on Monday?  Or did life go on?  I think life went on.  Yes, they make a contribution, no one is denying that.  It's just a matter of how much of an impact it makes.  I've yet to read any articles on the economic impact of Monday.

Can you take a compassionate perspective on those characters at all?

Never saw either of them, sorry.  Yes, I have compassion.  I have compassion for people who have terrible lives, I think there is a word in German for 'world sorrow'.  I have that quite often.

But even Jesus Christ said 'There will be poor always.'  You can't save everyone and indeed, there is nothing that says it is even possible.

[littledarlin]

I think it was said recently that the Hispanic population is now the majority in some areas.  I'm sure that is also due some to immigration.

And what's wrong with that?!  Is the US SUPPOSED to be a majority of white people of european descent?  What's the big deal?  Things change, we adapt, we move on.  I really don't want to bring up the obvious again, but legal or not, we're all essentially immigrants here.  well ok, so we were born here.  well what about illegal immigrants who have children here?  what happens when we deport the parents?  wait, let me guess, they should've thought about that before they had kids?

Many of them are Catholic and are quite used to religion mixing with politics.  And if naturalized will become voters.  Not sure which way they would vote on such legislative moral and gender issues, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

they're people!  they aren't tax dollars, they aren't votes, they're people.  why would i care how they vote?! 

[Daniel]

It sounds like this topic is getting pretty heated....

Let's try and remember that we're all here to love and support one another.

[delalluvia]

And what's wrong with that?!  Is the US SUPPOSED to be a majority of white people of european descent?  What's the big deal?  Things change, we adapt, we move on.

Doesn't bother me.  What bothers me is a bunch of people moving in that have right-wing religious beliefs that translate into voting power.

That should bother you, too.  It bothers me now with Dubya and company and their religious views in power.

I really don't want to bring up the obvious again, but legal or not, we're all essentially immigrants here.  well ok, so we were born here.  well what about illegal immigrants who have children here?  what happens when we deport the parents?  wait, let me guess, they should've thought about that before they had kids?

Why can't they take their kids with them?  The child is a U.S. citizen, but so what?  Can't U.S. kids grow up in foreign countries?  Happens all the time with ex-pats.  It's not a big tragedy.

[Sheyne]

YES!  if someone is seeking refuge here, they should be more than welcome to.  the only reason more people DON'T is because it is so hard to get here from asia, africa, south america, etc.  we have no right to say one persons life is more valuable than the other and we shouldn't have to make a choice.  we should help everyone we can, everyone who WANTS help. 

if the day comes when the religious right takes over, and start burning gays at the stake, i would absolutely flee to anywhere i could.  sometimes it's just not as simple as standing up to your government.  i do my best to stay here and change things for the better in the ways i can, but things keep getting worse.  there's going to come a point where i say fuck this, i'm sick of being treated like a second class citizen, and move to a country that accepts gays as equals.  will i go through the legal process?  yes, but i have the resources to do so.  for now.  but who knows what's going to happen.

Frankly, we ALL would, littledarlin.. People living in a reasonably economically stable society forget how tough things are in some parts of the world. It just kills me that people get to sitting in their little ivory towers and say "oh poor Africa, poor south america etc" and then get uneasy that these people for wanting to seek a better life in our countries.  Or worse, that they are starting to make sweeping generalisations about what they will do once they're here.  As though the actions of one person of a particular cultural group earns us the right to slap the label on all of them?

Come on, fair go.  To all those who think immigration isn't an idea they'd entertain, imagine the lengths you'd go to in order to protect your family and loved ones should terrorist attacks like 9/11 be happening once a month in your country?  If i knew there was a safer place where i could start all over again, I'd be there in a flash..