Stay Home.

[littledarlin]

Sorry Andrew, we just have to disagree on this.

hi jenny!  i wasn't saying i agree!  i was just pointing out why it was an issue.  the reason i brought up initially is to show the hypocrisy of the administration.  which we have several examples floating around now lol

and sparkle

And the theory of "they're taking our jobs!" reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend. She said the same exact thing. I laughed heartily and said YOU HAVE A JOB, ARE YOU RETARDED?

you should tell your friend no one's taking our jobs!  any job worth having you have to have computer skills, a college degree, and experience.    now all these people that complain about jobs being taken, i'd like to see them do one of those jobs that are "being taken" for a day. 

and hell, these days, there aren't jobs left to be taken!  i wish i had a figure of how many jobs we lost since 2000.  i know the gmc and ford have laid off millions and closed several plants alone. 

now OUTSOURCING jobs to countries with qualified people to avoid paying taxes and fair wages, now THAT'S something to be upset about. 

[starboardlight]

now OUTSOURCING jobs to countries with qualified people to avoid paying taxes and fair wages, now THAT'S something to be upset about. 

ironically, outsourcing may be just the thing that solves immigration problems. at the heart of immigration issue, people want to come to the US for jobs, but if the jobs went to these people, they won't feel the need to come here any longer. Looking at India and China for instance. There has been a decline in immigration from these two countries in the last decade. Before immigrants who came here on student visa would try to shift to B1-H status. With the quota on how many can get work visa, the major of these student simply abandon their visa in order to stay in the US. That is happening much less these days, because the jobs are available back in India and China. I'm not saying that exporting high-tech jobs to Mexico would stop the tides of immigration, but it's a model worth studying in terms of dealing the issue.

[ednbarby]

All right, I'll jump in the pool hip deep.  GAH!  That's COLD!  OK.  I'll dangle my toes.

Here in South Florida, as you can imagine, we certainly have our share of immigrants - of the illegal and legal varieties.  Most, if not all, of them have come here to escape economic hardships most of us here can only imagine.  Then there is the Cuban population.  The poster children of the Right for being their shining example of how we so readily aid the oppressed.  I guess it's OK if we disagree with their country's mode of government (dictatorship/fascism = OK, communism = bad) and they're pretty much completely vulnerable to us.

Diving in, now...

We employ a Columbian woman.  She cleans our house from top to bottom every other Monday.  Our next-door neighbor recommended her to us about six months ago.  Says she's been cleaning her house for years.  Says she does an excellent job, is trustworthy, and a pleasure to deal with.  She charges the going rate - no more, no less.  So we hired her.  And she has proven to be all the things our neighbor told us she was.  We never asked if she was legal.  But had we found out she wasn't, I don't think it would have been a deterrent.  I'd have figured they've gotta work, too.  And it might as well be for someone like us who would treat her with kindness and respect.

She called us Monday morning to say she couldn't clean the house that day because she was staying home/attending the rally in her area in support of the boycott.  My husband said power to her, we support that 100% and think it's a very important statement they're making.  She rescheduled with us for next week.

If it turns out she is illegal, I guess neither of us can ever run for a major public office.  Fine by me.  Because it's not the politicians who make things better (or worse).  It's the rest of us.

[rtprod]

If it turns out she is illegal, I guess neither of us can ever run for a major public office.  Fine by me.  Because it's not the politicians who make things better (or worse).  It's the rest of us.

You just hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly why I participated in orchestrating a green card marriage -- because politicians failed to make something right become possible. 

It's funny how so many prefer to talk about this "issue" and not the human beings behind it.  I doubt those here who so radically oppose legalizing undocumented workers have ever had a personal connection to one. 

rt

[littledarlin]

You just hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly why I participated in orchestrating a green card marriage -- because politicians failed to make something right become possible. 

It's funny how so many prefer to talk about this "issue" and not the human beings behind it.  I doubt those here who so radically oppose legalizing undocumented workers have ever had a personal connection to one. 

rt

exactly!!!  this is what's wrong with the world, people aren't able to empathize with someone unless they are right in front of their face, and even then it doesn't always work.  there are people who believe we should be in iraq, and the fact that we are there on false pretenses doesn't phase them, they honestly want to just nuke them.  no consideration of the millions and millions of innocent people there, all because of a vendetta the bush family has against sadaam hussein.  all for oil.  the roots of these feelings are racist, and extremely childish. 

but this formula is applied to nearly every minority, including gays.  someone can be the biggest homophobe in the world, but one day they found out their child or friend or someone close to them is gay and it completely shakes their belief system and they see things in a new light.

ironically, outsourcing may be just the thing that solves immigration problems. at the heart of immigration issue, people want to come to the US for jobs, but if the jobs went to these people, they won't feel the need to come here any longer. Looking at India and China for instance. There has been a decline in immigration from these two countries in the last decade. Before immigrants who came here on student visa would try to shift to B1-H status. With the quota on how many can get work visa, the major of these student simply abandon their visa in order to stay in the US. That is happening much less these days, because the jobs are available back in India and China. I'm not saying that exporting high-tech jobs to Mexico would stop the tides of immigration, but it's a model worth studying in terms of dealing the issue.

that's a really good point, nipith, and i never really considered that.  although now it seems kind of obvious.  but i don't think it would ever fly.  people who oppose immigration all together just want nothing to do with these people.  going back again to the issue of racism and nationalism.  but it's definitely something to think about.

[ednbarby]

Right on, Andrew and RT.

It's that very notion you speak of that made me change my party affilliation from Republican to Democrat in 1992.  I realized that way too many Republicans (pretty much all of them) I knew personally and knew of in the media viewed the world like this:  If it doesn't affect me *directly*, I don't care.  Trouble is I did and I do.  I think life should be about trying to make the world a better place not just for ourselves but for everyone we can.  The Republicans I know call this throwing money at the problem.  What's the alternative?  Doing nothing?  Eating and drinking in merry oblivion while they suffer and die when we have the money and power to do something about it?  And meanwhile try to "spread Democracy" to regions that just plain don't want it/didn't ask for it just because it furthers our own oil-hungry agenda?  I'd rather jab a sharp stick in my eye than subscribe to a policy like that.

[delalluvia]

I actually feel sorry for her. Think about it, if she agreed to marry a man she met via postal service, she must have been in a desperate situation. And her boyfriend was probably a poor boy who had no choice but to become a drug mule. People aren't always downright evil.

Hi opinionista,

Not sure why you would feel sorry for her.  If you missed it, she admitted she had no intention of ever MARRYING anyone.  What she wanted - and got - was a free trip to the U.S. so she could be with her boyfriend.

In case you also missed it, she took my relative's money under false pretenses and when he tried to right the wrong by sending her home, she also took that money as well and jumped ship.

Then she called to make fun of him.

This relative of mine - misguided or not - was in love with her.  So you also got his feelings wrapped up in this.

And you tell me you feel sorry for her.

OK, to each their own.

take our jobs!

, um, yeah.

Yes, my half-brother works in construction, yes, my cousin works in lawn care.  We're all from legal immigrants or were born here.  So I guess they could tell you who is 'taking their jobs' and who isn't.

And yes, there are people who are against ALL immigration.  Some others have no problem against immigrants, but have a lot of problems with ILLEGAL immigration.

There IS a difference.

So we have one 'side' demonizing illegal immigrants and we have another 'side' demonizing people who want to limit immigrants.

Hmmm...   

[delalluvia]

Well, at least we got a laugh out of that last line.  I too think this concept of staying to fight for a revolution when your economy stinks and your government is rife with corruption and you don't have food on the table is laughable. 

But then I was "lucky" enough to be born a white male in America (gay, yeah, but I can "pass" if need be), so what would I know about it?

rt and sparkle,

Today is Cinco de Mayo.  In which the Mexican army consisting of irregulars and peasant farmers armed with machetes and old rifles fought off the army of Napoleon III at Puebla.

I think you have a very strange idea of what people - poor or not - rallied properly can accomplish.  You guys seem to think that because they are poor, they are nothing but passive participants in life, helpless and can never accomplish anything unless they have help.  If you want to ignore the American Revolution, the French Revolution and various Mexican revolutions, be my guest, but the participants of those battles might surprise you.

[delalluvia]

ironically, outsourcing may be just the thing that solves immigration problems. at the heart of immigration issue, people want to come to the US for jobs, but if the jobs went to these people, they won't feel the need to come here any longer. Looking at India and China for instance. There has been a decline in immigration from these two countries in the last decade. Before immigrants who came here on student visa would try to shift to B1-H status. With the quota on how many can get work visa, the major of these student simply abandon their visa in order to stay in the US. That is happening much less these days, because the jobs are available back in India and China. I'm not saying that exporting high-tech jobs to Mexico would stop the tides of immigration, but it's a model worth studying in terms of dealing the issue.

This is very interesting  I'm not sure it would work well.  Many companies outsource in order to cut overhead.  There is a lot of abuse in 3rd world countries - sweat shops, Kathy Gifford, Union Carbide etc - when this kind of thing happens.  Those companies do business in certain areas because the worker protection laws are lax or non-existent.  This is how they save money.  If companies that outsourced overseas or in south of the border countries were held to the same stringent standards of safety, pay scale, benefits etc., as here in the U.S. it would no longer be cost-effective to outsource.

Also, companies are very hesitant to invest in Mexico after the last nationalization of everything seized American investments in that country.

[rtprod]

I think you have a very strange idea of what people - poor or not - rallied properly can accomplish.  You guys seem to think that because they are poor, they are nothing but passive participants in life, helpless and can never accomplish anything unless they have help.  If you want to ignore the American Revolution, the French Revolution and various Mexican revolutions, be my guest, but the participants of those battles might surprise you

Do you have a personal connection to this in any way?  Myself, I have lived in the same house with Mexican immigrants in my life and know their day to day struggles, straight A bilingual children who pay out of pocket for basic medical care, and they all live a hand to mouth existence.  They must sacrifice time with their children, decent living conditions and self-respect to satisfy basic human needs. They are interested in keeping their heads down and providing for themselves and their families.  They are not capable of or interested in revolution.  Period.  If you could see what I have seen, you might not feel so hardline on this. 

Further, many Mexican nationals love their country madly and wish they could make a go of it there, some dream of going back when they have a substantial financial standing while others want to remain here.  None I've seen have entered the country to commit crimes, defraud good people and sponge off social programs.  I just don't see it, sorry.  Perhaps my own experience has colored my view as well, but I'd rather error on the side of inclusion than otherwise.  That's just me. 

I'm sorry you can't see the human face of this issue, and sadly there are many who feel the same.  Let the generalizations sweep.  Sorry for the graphic nature of this photo, but this is the risk faced and unfortunate reality for, I'm sure, many:


 
This conversation has reached an exhausted dead end, in my book. 

rt