Broken in Two

[Front-Ranger]

I have always wondered about the significance of the term, Brokeback Mountain. I am just starting to have some insight. This fictional mountain exists in the Rocky Mountains near the Continental Divide, which divides North America, as well as Wyoming, in two. One way of interpreting the story is on a sociological level: BBM is a "western" which embraces the duality of west and east (the director is Asian), rural and urban, modern and primordial, gay and straight, sheepherders and cowboys, family farms and towns/businesses. The two main characters had many similarities, but they came from opposite corners of the state. Wyoming itself is a state of contrasts. The northeast portion is flat and boasts the richest deposits of coal in North America in the Powder River Basin. The western portion is mountainous and devoted primarily to agriculture, including ranching and livestock.

There is a part of the story left out of the movie which gave me another clue to the naming of Brokeback Mountain. As Jack and Ennis relax together at the motel after reuniting, Jack tells Ennis why the Army "didn't get him" and he got out of rodeoing: "Got...a stress fracture, the arm bone here....Even if you tape it good, you break it a little goddam bit at a time. . . . Had a busted leg. Busted in three places. . . . Bunch a other things, f**kin busted ribs, sprains and pains, torn ligaments." Not only is Jack's body broken, but in the end his ashes were divided up, never to be made whole again, and far from Brokeback Mountain.

[nakymaton]

From the other side of the Continental Divide...

I love this.

"You break it a little goddam bit at a time..."

Yeeouch. Do you think it was like that, every time Ennis refused the possibility of a "sweet life"?

[southendmd]

F-R,

I like the east/west idea.

Also, the Timmy character talks about 'breakin' my back' shoveling asphalt, and 'strong back, weak mind' dichotomy.

The most compelling idea I've heard involves 'Symposium' by Plato; this is also alluded to in 'Hedwig and the Angry Inch' during the song 'Origin of Love' with its wonderful animation.  The concept is of three kinds of beings: children of the sun (two men stuck together back to back), earth (two women) and moon (a man and a woman) who are separated by the gods by a lightning bolt down the back. They are scattered over the earth, and struggle to find their "other half".

Has anyone heard what Proulx herself might have intended?

[j.U.d.E.]

I've been thinking about the meaning of Brokeback Mountain too. Afraid to ask though, because there were questions about 'why Brokeback Mountain' at nauseam on the big board..

Still wondering why Annie Proulx chose that name..

Way too easy probably, but 'brokeback' -> broken back.. Someone with a broken back is paralyzed.. which is kind of what Ennis is..

~ j U d E

[Front-Ranger]

Nothing on her website about it. Here's what I found through a general search:

Means worthless, swayback, or double peak:
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002913.html

OT, but about Proulx' prose:
http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/powerprose/texas/

Well, that's about all...

[moremojo]

Has anyone heard what Proulx herself might have intended?

I believe I read somewhere that there is a site in Wyoming called Breakback Mountain, and that Proulx was inspired to tweak this a bit to form 'Brokeback Mountain'. But it should be stressed that Brokeback Mountain is not meant to stand in for Breakback Mountain, and the town of Signal is likewise fictional.

I've also read comments alluding to the sexually suggestive connotations of 'Brokeback', along with its more obvious connotations of a hard life (as in, "back-breaking work", the kind that Ennis endured for his whole existence).

[starboardlight]

There is a part of the story left out of the movie which gave me another clue to the naming of Brokeback Mountain. As Jack and Ennis relax together at the motel after reuniting, Jack tells Ennis why the Army "didn't get him" and he got out of rodeoing: "Got...a stress fracture, the arm bone here....Even if you tape it good, you break it a little goddam bit at a time. . . . Had a busted leg. Busted in three places. . . . Bunch a other things, f**kin busted ribs, sprains and pains, torn ligaments." Not only is Jack's body broken, but in the end his ashes were divided up, never to be made whole again, and far from Brokeback Mountain.

that just made me think of the song in Hedwig.

"And, if we don't behave,
They'll tear us down again."

Jack dreamed further than fate would allow, and so he is torn in half yet again.

[Front-Ranger]

Those are really interesting observations southend and starboard!

[j.U.d.E.]

Means worthless, swayback

Don't quite like that..

~ j U d E

[ednbarby]

"You break it a little goddam bit at a time..."

Yeeouch. Do you think it was like that, every time Ennis refused the possibility of a "sweet life"?

Wow.  Never made that connection.  But I'm always going on about how we watch Jack's heart break a little bit at a time over the course of the movie.  Thanks for that.   

[ednbarby]

that just made me think of the song in Hedwig.

"And, if we don't behave,
They'll tear us down again."

Jack dreamed further than fate would allow, and so he is torn in half yet again.

And this makes me think of a Peter Gabriel song called "Here Comes The Flood":

"And if we break before the dawn
They'll use up what we used to be."

 

[Brown Eyes]

There is a part of the story left out of the movie which gave me another clue to the naming of Brokeback Mountain. As Jack and Ennis relax together at the motel after reuniting, Jack tells Ennis why the Army "didn't get him" and he got out of rodeoing: "Got...a stress fracture, the arm bone here....Even if you tape it good, you break it a little goddam bit at a time. . . . Had a busted leg. Busted in three places. . . . Bunch a other things, f**kin busted ribs, sprains and pains, torn ligaments." Not only is Jack's body broken, but in the end his ashes were divided up, never to be made whole again, and far from Brokeback Mountain.

Well Jack's broken bones are even more literally tied to the title... when he describes his injuries in the motel scene, he begins by saying he has a broken back.  It's right before the part you quote. lol.  "They can't get no use out a me.  Got some crushed vertebrates."  I'm sure the word "brokeback" is meant to be at least slightly erotic and evocative (as people frequently note) in the way it sounds too.

This is a nice thread Front-Ranger.  I like your point about division as a general theme.  The ashes are a really good example.
 

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, you're right Amanda!

Now, my idea of why Annie Proulx named it Brokeback Mountain is a kind of humble beginnings setting to the story. Jack and Ennis met on the mountain and instead of it being a worthless place, site of failed attempts to cross the Rocky Mountains by pioneers, it became the turning point of their lives. Similar to the story of Jesus Christ being born in a manger.

[serious crayons]

For me, the name also carries a suggestion of a failed effort. You break your back trying futiley to accomplish something; that is, you are destroyed by the struggle. Brokeback was the idyllic place that Jack and Ennis could never make it back to, much as they (both!) might have wanted it, and eventually the struggle destroyed them. Does that make sense?

[TJ]

In one of her interviews or in one of her essays, Annie Proulx mentions seeing "Break Back" as the name of a mountain in Wyoming on a Wyoming topographical map.

[Front-Ranger]

Another sign of the West broken in two was the train that passed between us (viewers) and Ennis at the beginning of the movie. The transcontinental railway was an advancement that united the East and the West but it also split whole communities in two.

[Front-Ranger]

Somebody on TOB asked about the significance of the train, and here's what I wrote:

Interesting post, Kula. I also find it interesting that the train passes between the viewer and Ennis, separating us from him. Trains were also a divisive feature in rural towns, breaking them in two. After the trains came through, there was a "right" and a "wrong" side of the tracks. The railway crossed Wyoming and the West, "taming" the West and bringing in settlers who were at odds with the cowboy culture.

As we try to see Ennis through the gaps in the train cars, we see flickering light and dark screens, a constantly changing view. This is a harbinger of how the movie will unfold, with an interplay of opposite and complementary elements.

[TJ]

Edited statement - - - -> The transcontinental railway was an advancement that united the East and the West but it also split whole Native American tribal communities in two.

And, that railroad was also used to promote the shooting of buffalo from the train and the real purpose behind that was to destroy what the Indians relied on as both food, clothing and even shelter.

[serious crayons]

Also, with its rhythm and reference to brokenness, Brokeback hints of heartbreak.

[Ellemeno]

Not sure how it fits, but there's the sentence Jack says in the story, something like, "I ain't no broke dick rider."

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

These are all really interesting... From the train passing by to the Continental Divide to Jack's ashes being separate, that is a really haunting idea.

Unfortunately, I cannot add much else yet.

[Front-Ranger]

We haven't even started on the people who were broken in two in this movie, and I don't know if I have the strength to delve into it. But TJ's post about Native Americans reminded me of something I wanted to bring up: Various tribes regarded gay people as a combination of man AND woman and therefore a double dose of humanity. So in a way, straight people were considered to be just half a person. They had various terms for gay men and women and they had a special role in the tribe. The only openly gay character in a Western movie before BBM was a Native American in "Little Big Man."

[alec716]

What backs are not broken in this story?      Jack's "vertebrates" (as mentioned), the backs of two marriages, the innocence of 3 childhoods (five, if you count Ennis and Jack's difficult upbringings and experiences with their fathers), and, ultimately, the backbone of the central relationship in the story -- Jack lost his very life, as we all know.  Jack was the backbone of the relationship -- made many early suggestions of togetherness, made the first physical advances, made sure that they reconnected after 4 years, formulated plans for a day-to-day future together, traveled far and wide on Ennis's schedule for 2 decades' worth of the famed fishin' trips, and even cradled Ennis when he collapsed during their last meeting (despite the fact that Ennis first pushed him away a mere moment earlier).  How ultimately symbolic that Jack's physical spine was not allowed to remain intact -- it was cremated and (as referenced earlier in this thread) the ashes divided between two locations.  Sadly, I see Jack as the utlimate "brokeback" in this story.

just my rant for the evening ... 

[Meryl]

Very nice thread, Lee.  I think there are a lot of opposites in this movie, and you've touched on some important ones in your first post.

For another take on this question, this seems like a good place to share a comment from a thread I started at IMDB, and my reply to it:

By  nonon99_99
I suspect the almost unhumanly precise symmetry structuralism with its imploding is the cause of Brokeback Mountain's nearly physical hurting emotional affectability. Everything there is Ennis, then Jack, then again Ennis, then again Jack, etc.. Suddently at one moment, Jack is no more, the grand structure is destroyed, BROKEN. We audiences suddently woke up from a dream and faced the reality that a part of our viscera is being taken out by violence. In viewing the last twenty minutes of this movie, I would say if some scenes last two seconds more I need to call emergency. But then the unbelievable structural balance works again, those scenes last right to what you can barely bear and the structure gradually rebuilt/extened itself (Jack's Mother, Ennis's daughter, 'I swear').

Hence I think the title, Brokeback, is a precise description of the film in an abstract way. 
 
By meryl_88
What a beautiful description, nonon, and all the more impressive since it seems that English is not your first language. You're right about how we are "broken" by Jack's violent exit, and the scenes that follow are indeed a slow, painful mending of that break, a coming "back." There's something deeply moving, too, about the Mother and Daughter figures being so important to that healing. They love Jack and Ennis unconditionally, and we can do the same through them. Thank you for that insight.

[Front-Ranger]

Thank you for sharing that exchange with nonon, Meryl, it is very moving.

[Front-Ranger]

Since our friend ruthlessly is gone (hopefully temporarily) I would like to bring up an observation that s/he made about the chopping block. A tree stump used as a chopping block figures in two scenes. First, when Aguirre rides up while Jack is chopping wood. Aguirre scans the hillside with binoculars to ascertain the location of Jack's other half, Ennis. Then, when Aguirre sends word to bring the sheep down, Ennis, frustrated, sits down on the chopping block, picks up a log, and tosses it away. All this as a way to forecast the separation of Ennis and Jack in two.

[HerrKaiser]

For me, the name also carries a suggestion of a failed effort. You break your back trying futiley to accomplish something; that is, you are destroyed by the struggle. Brokeback was the idyllic place that Jack and Ennis could never make it back to, much as they (both!) might have wanted it, and eventually the struggle destroyed them. Does that make sense?

I think this makes a good deal of sense, especially given the timeframe of the story and the use of this saying more often in play in the 50s and 60s.

I also have felt the name is actually two words--Broke and Back. The place of broken hearts, broken dreams, broken plans; yet a place to always come back to. For those who, like many homosexual men especially pre-mid 70s, were never really able to establish a long term, rooted life of comfort and peace, they tendency is to hold onto those solid rocks in their pasts that held promise. Many use their childhood homes, teachers, Churches, etc. but I think Ennis and Jack, in spite of the "broken" nature of their lives, kept coming "back" for the hope it was all going to be OK.

[Front-Ranger]

I attended a CSN&Y concert this summer and heard them perform this song. It was very moving, because first Crosby started out with a single spotlight on him, then Nash joined in, then Stills, and the "They are for...each other" was sung by all of them. Interesting that they say "two alone" because two people makes one unit if it works, and they complement each other.

[Front-Ranger]

With apologies to Bob Dylan:

Brokeback lines, brokeback strings,
Brokeback threads, brokeback springs,
Brokeback idols, brokeback heads,
People sleeping in brokeback beds.
Ain't no use jiving
Ain't no use joking
Everything is brokeback.

Brokeback bottles, brokeback plates,
Brokeback switches, brokeback gates,
Brokeback dishes, brokeback parts,
Streets are filled with brokeback hearts.
Brokeback words never meant to be spoken,
Everything is brokeback.

Bridge: Seem like every time you stop and turn around
Something else just hit the ground

Brokeback cutters, brokeback saws,
Brokeback buckles, brokeback laws,
Brokeback bodies, brokeback bones,
Brokeback voices on brokeback phones.
Take a deep breath, feel like you're chokin',
Everything is brokeback.

Bridge: Every time you leave and go off someplace
Things fall to pieces in my face

Brokeback hands on brokeback ploughs,
Brokeback treaties, brokeback vows,
Brokeback pipes, brokeback tools,
People bending brokeback rules.
Hound dog howling, bull frog croaking,
Everything is brokeback.


Copyright © 1989 Special Rider Music

[BBM-Cat]

Love all the incredible insights  - all alluding to being "broken" physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Perhaps it's already been mentioned - but the actual name "Brokeback" in and of itself is such a conflictual name for a mountain range located in such a peaceful and idyllic location. Another indication of the disharmony, or incongruency that plagues Jack's and Ennis's lives.

I mean, what if it had been called TriPeak Mountain or some other such silly name  - would we still feel quite the same? "Brokeback" has such an emotional and conflictual charge to it - just seems to fit so perfectly with the entire theme of the movie.

[Front-Ranger]

BBM-Cat did you know that there's an actual Brokenback Mountain in north central Wyoming? EDelMar has visited there several times and has placed a cache with the book and other mementos of the movie. There are pictures at

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=5791.0

Another thing, Wyoming is a place that is broken in pieces, in a way. Each of the corners of the state is very different, but you're right they're all beautiful, but some would debate that. And scattered very very thinly over the state are the residents. Wyoming is the most sparsely populated state in the Union.

[BBM-Cat]

How fascinating - the complexity and parallels just keep getting deeper. Can't wait to visit the link - thank you so much!

BBM-Cat did you know that there's an actual Brokenback Mountain in north central Wyoming? EDelMar has visited there several times and has placed a cache with the book and other mementos of the movie. There are pictures at

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=5791.0

Another thing, Wyoming is a place that is broken in pieces, in a way. Each of the corners of the state is very different, but you're right they're all beautiful, but some would debate that. And scattered very very thinly over the state are the residents. Wyoming is the most sparsely populated state in the Union.

[moremojo]

Another "broken" reference from the film that just occurred to me today:

Ennis, to Jack, at the scene of the lakeside quarrel:"You forget what it's like being broke all the time."

Edit:Sheepishly, rereading through the thread, I note that goadra already cited this line.

[Front-Ranger]

While visiting the real Brokenback Mountain last month, I read why it was named that. It seems that a pioneer had to get under a wagon and fix it while traversing the mountain, and he hurt his back (altho he didn't break it).

[Front-Ranger]

People, people. All this talk about us being done with talking about the movie and the story. We haven't even started! Here's an example, from the movie:

Ennis said, "That harmonica don't sound quite right either." and Jack replied, "That's 'cause it got kinda flattened when that mare
threw me."
Ennis: "Oh yeah? Thought you said that mare couldn't throw you.
JACK
Eh, she got lucky.
ENNIS
Yeah well, if I got lucky, that harmonica woulda
broke in two.

[Front-Ranger]

In the story, Jack said "I ain't no broke-dick rider." I'm not sure but I think he was referring to penniless rodeo cowboys who just keep on because they're addicted to rodeoing. And at the end of the movie, Ennis said, "You forgot what it's like bein broke all the time." I wonder when the word broke came to be used to mean, out of money? It also seems to connote, used up, wasted, done. I think this is part of the mystique of the Brokeback Mountain name. The real Brokenback Mountain got its name during pioneer days when people were trying to reach Oregon by going over the Rocky Mountains. I read in a brochure that the mountain was named for a man who hurt his back while trying to repair a wagon with a broken axle. Two brokes in one!! There were other mountains and ranges with similar names, bestowed by pioneers who had to turn back in failure or who pressed on and barely made it, or who lost members of their party in the process.

[serious crayons]

When Ennis tells Jack he doesn't remember what it's like, "bein broke all the time," it's kind of a forshadowing of his own future, when he'll be broke(n-hearted) all the time.

[LauraGigs]

A poster on IMDB pointed out that no vehicle in the film had matching, working pairs of lights*.  Not Ennis' truck, not Lureen's red car, et cetera.  He also pointed out that these period vehicles are kept in immaculate shape ― so this would have to have been deliberate.

Yet another visual symbol reiterating the theme of separation, mismatch and breakage.




*I'm not sure about the semi at the beginning; will have to check.

[Front-Ranger]

Your lists are heartbreaking and so true, adiabatic!!

[Front-Ranger]

With credit to moremojo, I copy this quote:

The world breaks everyone, and afterwards, many are strong at the broken places--Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961)

[moremojo]

Is goadra gone?

[Front-Ranger]

No, she just changed her name; I'll PM you.

[Front-Ranger]

I would like to quote from the book "Of One and Many Worlds" by my friend Rayn Roberts (yes, OUR Rayn) which seems very appropriate here.

Where Buddha Sits

In truth buddha-nature is everything, so then,
did buddha-nature play a part in
bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and why
are the histories of the buddhist east

as bloody and as savage as the war torn christian west? I have no easy answers but I offer this. buddha-nature-nuclear-bomb, nirvana, a bomb to the illusion of self. . . that is what nirvana is. no suicide, still a gun to the head of self!

Nature says do, survive, assert, intend--
buddha sees the third eye explode.
a mushroom cloud in your head--
buddha sits in every whole and broken atom.

[Penthesilea]

I just reread this whole thread and there's another mention of breaking/broke, which is very obvious, but not mentioned here yet:

The rim of the tire (or whatever it was, depening on what you believe) broke Jack's nose and jaw. 

Even further, Annie connects this with Jack's back in the same sentence: "The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back.

[brokebackjack]

I just reread this whole thread and there's another mention of breaking/broke, which is very obvious, but not mentioned here yet:

The rim of the tire (or whatever it was, depening on what you believe) broke Jack's nose and jaw. 

Even further, Annie connects this with Jack's back in the same sentence: "The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back.

She did it on purpose. Which is why it's a masterpiece.

[Front-Ranger]

According to the Continental Divide Alliance, the Continental Divide breaks into two separate lines at the Wyoming/Colorado border and dosen't come together again until the Bridger National Forest area. A vast area of central Wyoming is a no-man's land where the rivers don't drain either to the east or the west. This has led to some interesting geologic formations, such as the Muddy Gap, where many covered wagons foundered during the historic Westward migration of the pioneers.

[brokebackjack]

This is the location of the Red Desert, and one of the main reasons for its' geographical and botanical fascination: what's put into and onto the Red Desert, Stays in the Red Desert. Consider it a naturally occuring Vegas, writ large.

It does not end up in either the Atlantic, Pacific or Gulf. It remains in this no-mans-land permanently

[Meryl]

It does not end up in either the Atlantic, Pacific or Gulf. It remains in this no-mans-land permanently

Kinda like Ennis.  Coincidence?   

[brokebackjack]

In this case probably a coincidence. But that story is so well constructed---even the punctuation matters, very little IS coincidence. You got me very curious when you asked if it was a coincidence, VERY curious... I'm goin to ask about it.

[Sandy]

Ok, this is probably stretching at all a little   

When Ennis' nose is hurt by Jack's knee, Jack tries to mend Ennis' hurt by holding him and saying, "it's alright".  He wipes his nose and gets blood on both (separate) shirts.  As we know, blood tends to stain and the shirts are ruined.  Instead of attempting to wash the shirts (and thus fix them), Jack leaves them spoiled.  And mends them by putting them together, blood on blood. 

Sorry for my random musings   

[serious crayons]

Sorry for my random musings   

Don't apologize, Sandy! Your random musings are always worth reading. 

[Front-Ranger]

In this case probably a coincidence. But that story is so well constructed---even the punctuation matters, very little IS coincidence. You got me very curious when you asked if it was a coincidence, VERY curious... I'm goin to ask about it.

Yes, do! Here is something AP said in an interview one time:

Geography, geology, climate, weather, the deep past, immediate events, shape the characters and partly determine what happens to them, although the random event counts for much, as it does in life. I long ago fell into the habit of seeing the world in terms of shifting circumstances overlaid upon natural surroundings. I try to define periods when regional society and culture, rooted in location and natural resources, start to experience the erosion of traditional ways, and attempt to master contemporary, large-world values. The characters in my novels pick their way through the chaos of change. The present is always pasted on layers of the past.

[brokebackjack]

I've never seen that quote before and it explains a great deal

[optom3]

For me, the name also carries a suggestion of a failed effort. You break your back trying futiley to accomplish something; that is, you are destroyed by the struggle. Brokeback was the idyllic place that Jack and Ennis could never make it back to, much as they (both!) might have wanted it, and eventually the struggle destroyed them. Does that make sense?

I agree so completely with you.Both men eventually become "broken" by the apparant initial  idyll of their time on the mountain.Ennis's virginity is literally broken there.Their hearts are broken,portrayed so graphically ,by The wretching scene when Ennis leaves Jack, and so subtely by Jack and his silent pauses as he awaits confirmation that Ennis may return next year.

In the story Ennis admits that he knows what he has lost when he comes down from the mountain,so in effect they both inherently were broken by the summer.They try to recapture a fragment of what they once had in those glorious days,with their infrequent meetings,but never fully succeed.Only fragments of the carefree days are ever regained.They can never go back to what they once had,it is lost forever.

They never go "back" to broke back, and they never go "back" to those carefree times.Jack longs,in the book to go back to that time of the silent embrace,the memory of which still haunts him.When Ennis held him from behind.
In the end they like us they cannot turn back the clock.They grasp at straws in a vain attempt to salvage some vestige of what they once had,but end up broken by the whole experience.
Jack is literally physically broken,and Ennis becomes a broken shell of a man.

Maybe that is why both the film and story resonate so deeply with so many of us.We have been broken in so many different ways,and oh, how some of us wish we could rewind back the hands of the clock.

They remain forever broken by a love that will  never reach its full and glorious potential, no matter how hard they try. and neither can I.mores the pity.This is I believe the genius of Proulxs' writing,there is something for all of us.That is unless you have been living in  an emotional vacuum,in which case,you probably would not have either read the story,or viewed the film.
If I could have one wish,it would not be for fortune or fame,it would be to go back and change my actions,to mend my broken heart!!!!!

[Front-Ranger]

Another instance of brokenness that occurs early in the story. Jack and Ennis sit around the campfire talking about the loss of the submarine Thresher and what it must have been like in those last doomed moments. Here's some info about the event.

the USS Thresher (SSN-593), the first of the new Thresher-class 3700-ton nuclear-powered attack submarines. Commissioned in August 1961, she underwent extensive sea trials during ‘61 and ‘62. On April 10, 1963, after completion of a re-fit, she began post-overhaul trials. Accompanied by the submarine rescue ship Skylark (ASR-20), she transited to an area some 220 miles east of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and started deep-diving tests.

At 9:13 a.m., the USS Skylark (a surface vessel assigned to assist Thresher) received a signal, via underwater telephone, indicating that the submarine was experiencing “minor difficulties, have positive up-angle, attempting to blow.”

Shortly afterward, the Skylark received a series of garbled, undecipherable message fragments from the Thresher. At 9:18 a.m., the Skylark’s sonar picked up the sounds of the submarine breaking apart. All 129 hands were lost—112 military and 17 civilian technicians.

The submarine community, the Navy and the nation were stunned. Thresher was the best of the newest. The ship was built at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Kittery, Maine and was the first of a new class of submarine, designed for optimum performance of sonar and weapons systems

[Brown Eyes]

Thanks for that Lee.  I've always thought that the Thresher detail was something that could be "researched" in greater depth to try to figure out why that very specific (and somewhat odd or seemingly out of place) detail is so prominently mentioned in the story.

[Penthesilea]

Thanks for that Lee.  I've always thought that the Thresher detail was something that could be "researched" in greater depth to try to figure out why that very specific (and somewhat odd or seemingly out of place) detail is so prominently mentioned in the story.

From the story:

"They had a high-time supper by the fire, [...], talking horses and rodeo [...] the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands and how it must have been in the last doomed minutes, [...]."


This is one hell of a run-on sentence. It's a whole paragraph's length. It covers much ground: what they did, what they ate, how they sat and what they talked about (daily talk about ususal things as well as personal stuff!). It says so much about their relationship with each other, their growing intimacy, without explicit naming it.

Back to the Thresher: the mentioning of the Thresher and especially the wording of how it must have been in those last doomed minutes leads my thoughts into a quite unpleasant direction. It makes me think of Jack and how it must have been for him in those last doomed minutes (whichever way it was).


Also is the Thresher one of surprisingingly many marine referrences. Surprising for a story set in Wyoming. FRont-Ranger opened a thread about it.
What brings me to a remark by Marcia (or was it Mouk?), that the Thresher was not named after the agricultural device, but after the Thresher Shark. And we do find a "real estate shark" in the prolog of the story.

[Front-Ranger]

Wow, you remember that old thread? I think I found it on page four here!

It is The Hidden Ocean.

Thanks, Chrissi!!

[Penthesilea]

Oh, one more thing: the mention of the Thresher lets us know when this conversation took place: it was in June, since the Thresher sunk in April and it was "two months ago".
It was the day after they traded jobs, but a while before they became lovers.

Wow, you remember that old thread? I think I found it on page four here!

It is The Hidden Ocean.

Thanks, Chrissi!!

Yup, I do remember  Will reread it later. Thanks for the link.

[Front-Ranger]

A good point, Chrissi.

Here is something that ProwlAmongUs wrote on another thread in the Open Forum:

As a farm boy (who listened endlessly to my dad and granddad) the analogy of reaping and threshing is ominous. A reaper was a machine that was used to cut grain, that is, to mow/cut it down. Later, technology expanded to include a "drop reaper" - a machine that combined the functions of cutting the grain and binding the bundles with twine/rope to be picked up later and taken to the "threshing machine." This is where the grain was separated from the hulls or chaff, literally by being pounded and pummeled. Of course, by 1963 all these functions were integrated into a "combine" - one machine that does it all from cutting to separating the grain. A variation of "thresh" is "thrash."  "Thrashed to within an inch of his life..."  For Jack, a gloomy instance of foreshadowing.

[brokeplex]

Ok, this is probably stretching at all a little   

When Ennis' nose is hurt by Jack's knee, Jack tries to mend Ennis' hurt by holding him and saying, "it's alright".  He wipes his nose and gets blood on both (separate) shirts.  As we know, blood tends to stain and the shirts are ruined.  Instead of attempting to wash the shirts (and thus fix them), Jack leaves them spoiled.  And mends them by putting them together, blood on blood. 

Sorry for my random musings   

"blood brothers"

when I was a small boy back in the 1960's, little boys as a part of initiations into clubs frequently would pick their fingers with a sharp knife of pin and mingle their blood. (this was long before AIDS made everyone cautious about such endeavors.) I still remember the day that Chris and I decided that we needed to be blood brothers. 

[Front-Ranger]

Reviving this post on the 45th anniversary of the sinking of the Thresher:

Another instance of brokenness that occurs early in the story. Jack and Ennis sit around the campfire talking about the loss of the submarine Thresher and what it must have been like in those last doomed moments. Here's some info about the event.


Quote
the USS Thresher (SSN-593), the first of the new Thresher-class 3700-ton nuclear-powered attack submarines. Commissioned in August 1961, she underwent extensive sea trials during ‘61 and ‘62. On April 10, 1963, after completion of a re-fit, she began post-overhaul trials. Accompanied by the submarine rescue ship Skylark (ASR-20), she transited to an area some 220 miles east of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and started deep-diving tests.

At 9:13 a.m., the USS Skylark (a surface vessel assigned to assist Thresher) received a signal, via underwater telephone, indicating that the submarine was experiencing “minor difficulties, have positive up-angle, attempting to blow.”

Shortly afterward, the Skylark received a series of garbled, undecipherable message fragments from the Thresher. At 9:18 a.m., the Skylark’s sonar picked up the sounds of the submarine breaking apart. All 129 hands were lost—112 military and 17 civilian technicians.

The submarine community, the Navy and the nation were stunned. Thresher was the best of the newest. The ship was built at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Kittery, Maine and was the first of a new class of submarine, designed for optimum performance of sonar and weapons systems

[brokeplex]

Today we honor those sailors who gave their lives for their country back in 1963.

good point about the "broken" motif including the story of the USS THRESHER.

[Front-Ranger]

little boys as a part of initiations into clubs frequently would pick their fingers with a sharp knife of pin and mingle their blood. (this was long before AIDS made everyone cautious about such endeavors.)

Surely little boys are the same way today! (Oh, I won't go into a similar ritual that young women perform, but it doesn't involve pricking fingers!)

I was trying to put a stamp on an envelope today and thought I would NEVER get the peel-off backing off of it. And then I tried to open an envelope, and it was closed with some god-awful adhesive. Please bring back stamps and envelopes that you can lick, for God's sake!!

[brokeplex]

Surely little boys are the same way today! (Oh, I won't go into a similar ritual that young women perform, but it doesn't involve pricking fingers!)

I was trying to put a stamp on an envelope today and thought I would NEVER get the peel-off backing off of it. And then I tried to open an envelope, and it was closed with some god-awful adhesive. Please bring back stamps and envelopes that you can lick, for God's sake!!

I can usually start the peeling process by rubbing my thumb along the edges of the stamp. Honestly, I think the peelers are an improvement. I still remember helping out in political mailer drives when I was a kid and licking all of those envelopes until I was queasy sick from the glue! Yuck!

[serious crayons]

I still remember helping out in political mailer drives when I was a kid and licking all of those envelopes until I was queasy sick from the glue!

I hate licking the glue, too, and always opt for self-adhesive stamps AND envelopes. For those who watched Seinfeld, don't forget that George's fiancée died doing that. 

[Artiste]

Front-Ranger:

You say:
 have always wondered about the significance of the term, Brokeback Mountain.
........

You noted that the mountains are also broken in two...
if you see the Grand Tetons, which are possibly the Borkeback Moutains ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

I hate licking the glue, too, and always opt for self-adhesive stamps AND envelopes. For those who watched Seinfeld, don't forget that George's fiancée died doing that. 

who do you sue under those circumstances? if it was the envelope do you sue the manufacturer, if it was the stamp do you sue the post office?

[BlissC]

Huh? Blood brothers ---> Envelopes and stamps? Have I missed something? 

[serious crayons]

Huh? Blood brothers ---> Envelopes and stamps? Have I missed something? 

Well, the connection is ...

When scheduling a fishing rendezvous,
Don't get poisoned by envelope glue
Send a postcard to your special you-know-who!

 

[BlissC]

Ah! That's a very good point. I'll remember that next time I'm scheduling a secret trip. 

[Artiste]

Grands Tetons are like broken in two  ??

Like Ennis and Jack !! ??

[Front-Ranger]

The most famous peaks of the Grand Teton Range are the three mountains: Grand Teton at 13,770 ft, Mt. Owen at 12,928 ft and Teewinot, at 12,325 ft. So, we don't see a double peak like the one in the movie that represents Brokeback Mountain. But what is significant is that the Tetons are on the Continental Divide that divides North America into its western and eastern halves. The waters flowing down these mountains eventually go to the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans.

[brokeplex]

The most famous peaks of the Grand Teton Range are the three mountains: Grand Teton at 13,770 ft, Mt. Owen at 12,928 ft and Teewinot, at 12,325 ft. So, we don't see a double peak like the one in the movie that represents Brokeback Mountain. But what is significant is that the Tetons are on the Continental Divide that divides North America into its western and eastern halves. The waters flowing down these mountains eventually go to the Pacific and the Atlantic Oceans.

The Continental Divide, after running thru Yellowstone, turns sharply east and misses the Tetons. The divide then turns more southeast and finally south as it runs thru the Absorokas. Just west of Dubois, WY is about as close as it gets to the Teton range. So it is the waters falling on the Absorokas which are divided between the Pacific and Atlantic basins. The Tetons lie within the Pacific basin.   

[Front-Ranger]

You are right, brokeplex, but in a way, I am too. The waters on the east side of the Tetons don't actually go to the Pacific Ocean, but they don't make a beeline for the Atlantic Ocean either. There is actually a high plateau in that part of Wyoming where there is no drainage either way. This can make for some interesting travelling this time of year. I just came back from Wyoming a few days ago and, in the "Muddy Gap" area southeast of the Wind River there are pools of mud and water standing around, something you don't see too often in the dry land known as Wyoming! This is also the habitat of the black-footed ferret. I saw quite a few ring-necked pheasants, which were colorful, and a big proud wild turkey out strolling with his harem!

[brokeplex]

I glad that you enjoy that part of WY too. I took the long drive between Riverton and Dubois last year coming back from MT and I really loved the area east and west of the continental divide just west of Dubois. I also drove over to Jackson to visit some friends and loved the crashing rivers running down out of the Tetons. That area in particular reminds me of the part of Alberta Ang Lee filmed Brokeback in.

I looked on my physiographic map and I found the basin you are referring to, I did not get a chance to visit there last trip. I look forward to seeing the area. It seems sort of a no mans land, neither in the Atlantic basin or the Pacific basin, and it looks very dry. A water sump?

[Front-Ranger]

The word Wyoming is from the Delaware Indians and it means mountains and valleys alternating. In Wyoming, there are always mountains ahead of you rising from the valley floor. Sometimes they are like visions of mountains, almost hanging in the sky, not even attached to the land. And the valleys have their own wild beauty matching the mountains. They seem to dance together across the state, and you better not be complacent, because one minute you'll be baking in the desert, while the next you are squeezing through a canyon with snow flying in your face!!

[Artiste]

Thanks, merci, Front-Ranger and oilfieldtrash !!

My penpal friend used to live in Brokeback Mountain at the Grand Tetons; he is missed by me; he was  murdered likely because he was a gay man; unfortunately!

Fortunately, he loved the Grand Tetons, serving as a guide to hunters there.

I remember the photos he sent to me, of moose coming in to eat with his horses.  I find it strange that there are moose there, do you?

And, would maybe Dubois be named by a relative of Annie?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

Artiste, I saw two moose there while I was travelling in Grand Teton National Park in January. Moose are strange-looking creatures! I also saw one in Alberta when I was there in July and posted a picture of it on the Alberta Pilgrimage thread.

DuBoise could possibly have been named by a relative of Annie because she has French-Canadian blood and Wyoming was explored and named by French trappers and explorers.

[brokeplex]

Artiste, I saw two moose there while I was travelling in Grand Teton National Park in January. Moose are strange-looking creatures! I also saw one in Alberta when I was there in July and posted a picture of it on the Alberta Pilgrimage thread.

DuBoise could possibly have been named by a relative of Annie because she has French-Canadian blood and Wyoming was explored and named by French trappers and explorers.

true, Artiste I have some info from the Dubois chamber, and I'll send it to you. DL has rigged up some scanner thing for me, I'll see if I can scan the chamber's promos  and history of that area into my computer. If I can, I'll forward it. there also is a web site which you can call up by going to google and putting in the word "dubois"

Some of the people that I spoke with when I was last in Dubois, had last names that "appeared" to have a French origin. Then maybe they had Basque ancestry and I confused them, but the population of the area not all Anglo by far.

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!

I always did think that moose were more in Canada, and was surprised by you and my friend seeing moose at the Grands Tetons!!


Maybe a moose or two or more... were brought by the Canadiens-francais to there?

And why elk instead of moose in the BM movie?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Merci  oildfieldtrach!

Mayne Annie saw in Dubois a relative of hers who was gay in those 60's times, and so wrote about homosexuality ?

Au revoir,
hugs!  Did you find any relatives of Annie in Dubois?

[Front-Ranger]

And why elk instead of moose in the BM movie?

I'm not sure, Artiste. But I know that elk crop up in several places in the movie and story. In Signal where Ennis lived there was an Elks Club sign prominently displayed on a building. I think it was like the laundry and the water, showing the wild and domesticated sides of the same idea. And at the lake, Ennis pleads with Jack to go along with Ennis's delays by promising to get Don Woe Wroe's cabin again so they could bag an elk the way they did on Brokeback that summer. But Jack knows they can never go back so he says, "I did once."

A moose is inherently kind of comical, and I can not see a moose without thinking of Bullwinkle. Maybe Ang Lee understood this from his college days in the U.S. There was a moose that met its end in the movie Into the Wild which I finally saw last night, and it had kind of a surrealistic look to it, kind of like the bean can with the spoon sticking out of it in lurid colors in Ennis' dream.

[Front-Ranger]

There are people in this world who are "defended", that is they are buttoned up as if to defend themselves from the cold wind and the elements. Then there are those who have been broken open and choose to remain that way, in order to let love and feelings flow. Heart-broken, or perhaps back-broken, to be open to dozy embraces. These are the fixers, and they are drawn to the standers like a moth to a flame.

[retropian]

What a great thread! I'm so glad it's been resurrected. I love the idea's here! I posted this before, my own thought of "Broken in Two" means to me. This seems an appropriate idea to post here.

I know the term "Brokeback Mountain" is what's also known as a "Swayback Mountain", two peaks joined by a ridge which reminds one of a "swayback" horse. A horse whose spine sags between withers and rump. You can see it depicted on the movie poster under Heaths chin. I had always thought it symbolized Jack and Ennis, two peaks joined, but always to be separate. It occurred to me that what Annie P. might have meant by picking that term as the title is revealed in the last line of the short story: "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it". What Ennis knew, and what he tried to believe are the peaks, joined, but always to separated by that "open space".

[southendmd]

another classic thread that deserves a bump

[ifyoucantfixit]

A moose is inherently kind of comical, and I can not see a moose without thinking of Bullwinkle. Maybe Ang Lee understood this from his college days in the U.S. There was a moose that met its end in the movie Into the Wild which I finally saw last night, and it had kind of a surrealistic look to it, kind of like the bean can with the spoon sticking out of it in lurid colors in Ennis' dream

I always felt like, it was because of the proximity of the Elks in Wyoming, over the numbers of Moose.  Moose are more of a Canadian animal, especially on the western side of the US.  Few Moose over here.  Tons of Elk.

[Front-Ranger]

I glad that you enjoy that part of WY too. I took the long drive between Riverton and Dubois last year coming back from MT and I really loved the area east and west of the continental divide just west of Dubois. I also drove over to Jackson to visit some friends and loved the crashing rivers running down out of the Tetons. That area in particular reminds me of the part of Alberta Ang Lee filmed Brokeback in.

I looked on my physiographic map and I found the basin you are referring to, I did not get a chance to visit there last trip. I look forward to seeing the area. It seems sort of a no mans land, neither in the Atlantic basin or the Pacific basin, and it looks very dry. A water sump?

I was just reading about the "Parting of the Waters", a place in Wyoming where the Pacific Creek and the Atlantic Creek fork, one going east, the other west. Apparently a fish could actually swim from the Pacific to the Atlantic Ocean! http://sploid.gizmodo.com/this-creek-divides-the-us-connecting-the-atlantic-and-p-1565867365?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[serious crayons]

Moose are more of a Canadian animal, especially on the western side of the US.  Few Moose over here.  Tons of Elk.

I've seen moose in the wild in northern Minnesota. But then, that practically is Canada.

[Front-Ranger]

How can we forget that classic song written by Bob Dylan just after he had seen Brokeback Mountain?

Brokeback lines, brokeback strings,
Brokeback threads, brokeback springs,
Brokeback idols, brokeback heads,
People sleeping in brokeback beds.
Ain't no use jiving
Ain't no use joking
Everything is brokeback.

Brokeback bottles, brokeback plates,
Brokeback switches, brokeback gates,
Brokeback dishes, brokeback parts,
Streets are filled with brokeback hearts.
Brokeback words never meant to be spoken,
Everything is brokeback.

Bridge: Seem like every time you stop and turn around
Something else just hit the ground

Brokeback cutters, brokeback saws,
Brokeback buckles, brokeback laws,
Brokeback bodies, brokeback bones,
Brokeback voices on brokeback phones.
Take a deep breath, feel like you're chokin',
Everything is brokeback.

Bridge: Every time you leave and go off someplace
Things fall to pieces in my face

Brokeback hands on brokeback ploughs,
Brokeback treaties, brokeback vows,
Brokeback pipes, brokeback tools,
People bending brokeback rules.
Hound dog howling, bull frog croaking,
Everything is brokeback.


Copyright © 1989 Special Rider Music

[CellarDweller]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPC2Fp7IT7o[/youtube]

Seether w/ Amy Lee - Broken

[Front-Ranger]

Breaking news! Bob Dylan wins Nobel Prize for literature!

With apologies to Bob Dylan:

Brokeback lines, brokeback strings,
Brokeback threads, brokeback springs,
Brokeback idols, brokeback heads,
People sleeping in brokeback beds.
Ain't no use jiving
Ain't no use joking
Everything is brokeback.

Brokeback bottles, brokeback plates,
Brokeback switches, brokeback gates,
Brokeback dishes, brokeback parts,
Streets are filled with brokeback hearts.
Brokeback words never meant to be spoken,
Everything is brokeback.

Bridge: Seem like every time you stop and turn around
Something else just hit the ground

Brokeback cutters, brokeback saws,
Brokeback buckles, brokeback laws,
Brokeback bodies, brokeback bones,
Brokeback voices on brokeback phones.
Take a deep breath, feel like you're chokin',
Everything is brokeback.

Bridge: Every time you leave and go off someplace
Things fall to pieces in my face

Brokeback hands on brokeback ploughs,
Brokeback treaties, brokeback vows,
Brokeback pipes, brokeback tools,
People bending brokeback rules.
Hound dog howling, bull frog croaking,
Everything is brokeback.


Copyright © 1989 Special Rider Music

[Front-Ranger]

I just watched an interview with Dave Cullen about his book, Columbine. At the end, he quoted Ernest Hemingway: "The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially."

[Front-Ranger]

Funny, Dave asked me where I saw that interview. Strange how things exist on the web.

[serious crayons]

Funny, Dave asked me where I saw that interview. Strange how things exist on the web.

You saw him in person or he asked you on Facebook or what? 

[Front-Ranger]

On Facebook yes. I've only met Dave in person once and I was too busy at the time to talk to him. He moved away from Denver several years ago. But we stay in touch on fb, Goodreads and Twitter.

[serious crayons]

On Facebook yes. I've only met Dave in person once and I was too busy at the time to talk to him. He moved away from Denver several years ago. But we stay in touch on fb, Goodreads and Twitter.

Just saw your post and came back to answer my own question. He and I are FB friends, too, but we don't interact much. I think I messaged him once to point out that a quote of his had appeared somewhere or something like that and he thanked me. And I met him at the 2007 BBQ and talked to him for a few minutes. You were probably busy barbecuing exotic delicacies. He was kind of condescending because he wrote for Slate and I wrote for Salon and he made clear that he considered Slate the superior publication. He's right (more so now than at the time) but I thought it it was less than polite to point it out.

That was long before Columbine the book, though.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Just saw your post and came back to answer my own question. He and I are FB friends, too, but we don't interact much. I think I messaged him once to point out that a quote of his had appeared somewhere or something like that and he thanked me. And I met him at the 2007 BBQ and talked to him for a few minutes. You were probably busy barbecuing exotic delicacies. He was kind of condescending because he wrote for Slate and I wrote for Salon and he made clear that he considered Slate the superior publication. He's right (more so now than at the time) but I thought it it was less than polite to point it out.

That was long before Columbine the book, though.

Funny. I got that impression from some posts I've read on his own Brokeback Web site.

[Front-Ranger]

 On May 24, 1941, Robert Allen Zimmerman was born in Duluth, Minnesota (he celebrates his 76th birthday this week). His parents—owners of a small appliance repair-shop—were children of Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe and Russia. He was only six when his father contracted polio, an event that forced the family to return to his mother’s nearby hometown of Hibbing, Minnesota.

Growing up in Hibbing, he developed a passionate interest in music. He took up the guitar at age 14, joined a local rock and roll band, and began performing the songs of Little Richard and Elvis Presley. After graduating from high school in 1959, he briefly attended the University of Minnesota, where he was inspired by the music of Woody Guthrie to give up rock and roll for the emerging trend of "folk music."

After one year of college, he adopted a new—and now legendary—stage name, moved to Manhattan, and began performing in Greenwich Village nightclubs. After his first album in 1962, which was only a modest success, he catapulted to fame with a second album of so-called "protest songs" in 1963. His songs contained simple melodies, haunting lyrics, and vivid metaphorical images that broke new ground in American music. Many became anthems for a new generation.

In his career, he has received every award possible for a creative artist, including the 2016 Nobel Prize for Literature, which hailed him "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition." Never one to be impressed with honors, it took him a while to actually accept the award. In his life, he seems to have remained true to a definition of success he offered in a 1967 interview:

"A man is a success
if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night,
and in between does what he wants to do."

[serious crayons]

A nice summation! But what does it have to do with "Broken in Two"? 

[southendmd]

A nice summation! But what does it have to do with "Broken in Two"? 

I'll venture a guess:  at one point, Jack plays a bar of "He Was a Friend of Mine" on his out-of-tune harmonica.

[serious crayons]

I'll venture a guess:  at one point, Jack plays a bar of "He Was a Friend of Mine" on his out-of-tune harmonica.

Ah! Good one -- very subtle. But would Jack even be familiar with a Dylan song the year after it came out? Would Wyoming radio stations even play music by Village folkies? Or is that one of those things that the characters don't notice but Ang wants us to notice?

By the way, I looked up the Dylan version on YouTube, then clicked on a link to the Willie Nelson version in the right rail. I glanced down at the comments and this was at the top:

My20GUNS 2 years ago
When I heard this at the end Of Brokeback Mountain, i started to cry, and I sat through the entire credits sequence, almost no movie is capable of doing that.

Frostbitt 9 months ago
I watched this in the Theater and have not seen it since. Perhaps someday I will revisit it. I was to heartbroken. When he visited the family and got the shirt out of the closet, I had a lump in my throat that hurt and my eyes steamed. This film was very powerful indeed. Someday, someday, I will revisit it. but not yet.

Alexis Han 5 months ago
My20GUNS I cried so hard all through the credits sequence as well
 

Then I looked up HWaFoM on Wikipedia. It seems Dylan did not write the song (its origins are a little hazy in the description, but definitely Western). "The version recorded by Willie Nelson was used in the film Brokeback Mountain and inaccurately credits Bob Dylan as the songwriter," says Wikipedia.


 

[southendmd]

Yes, the song--at least the tune--goes back to at least the 30s.  I once found a recording of "Shorty George", an early version of HWaFoM.
So, perhaps the tune was very familiar to cowboys.  Kinda like Ennis humming "The Streets of Laredo", before coming on the bear.

A little aside:  an early version of the screenplay includes directions for various old Western songs to be placed in particular scenes.  The titles often cleverly related to the action, one way or another.  Of course, I can't think of one right now...  I did take notes once.  They are all different from what ended up in the film--like "It's So Easy", D-I-V-O-R-C-E", etc.

In Tucson, I asked Larry about it.  He said that, while there were musicians in his family, the music was Diana's contribution!

[Front-Ranger]

A little trivia about Bob Dylan that I gleaned. It turns out that Dylan does NOT come from Dylan Thomas. So, who inspired Bob Dylan's last pen-name?

[southendmd]

A little trivia about Bob Dylan that I gleaned. It turns out that Dylan does NOT come from Dylan Thomas. So, who inspired Bob Dylan's last pen-name?

"According to Daniel Mark Epstein in his biography, "The Ballad of Bob Dylan," the switch from Zimmerman to Dylan began back when Dylan was 17 or 18.

As the front man for of his rockabilly-blues garage band, The Golden Chords, Bobby Zimmerman was the typical James Dean-posing rocker, playing high school talent shows and trying to impress the chicks. Even at that young age, Dylan had an amazing natural sense about the importance of image for entertainers. He groomed himself accordingly: it was all about the look and the appeal. Paramount to all, was the name.

At the time, wrote Epstein, “He was a great fan of Matt Dillon, the sheriff of the television series "Gunsmoke." In 1958, he confided to his high school sweetheart [Echo Helstrom] that he planned to devote his life to music, adding that 'I know what I'm going to call myself. I've got this great name—Bob Dillon.' That was how he told new friends to spell his (assumed) last name. He also told them that Dillon was his mother's maiden name (it wasn't), and that Dillon was a town in Oklahoma (it isn't).”

With the name Dillon fully intact, Epstein goes on to assert that the spelling shifted to Dylan in Dinkytown. Bob began plumbing the depths of world literature, “reading the poetry of Pound and Eliot, Ferlinghetti and Ginsberg; the novels of Kerouac and William Burroughs and Dylan Thomas, rebaptizing himself Bob Dylan.” "

https://www.thoughtco.com/how-bobby-zimmerman-became-bob-dylan-1322036

[Jeff Wrangler]

A little aside:  an early version of the screenplay includes directions for various old Western songs to be placed in particular scenes.  The titles often cleverly related to the action, one way or another.  Of course, I can't think of one right now...  I did take notes once.  They are all different from what ended up in the film--like "It's So Easy", D-I-V-O-R-C-E", etc.

Did it have anything to do with permissions?

[southendmd]

Did it have anything to do with permissions?

Don't know.  Possibly. 

I think I might start a new thread and include Diana's original music choices, from the 2003 screenplay.

[serious crayons]

the spelling shifted to Dylan in Dinkytown. Bob began plumbing the depths of world literature, “reading the poetry of Pound and Eliot, Ferlinghetti and Ginsberg; the novels of Kerouac and William Burroughs and Dylan Thomas

Good to know that he acquired his worldly reading habits in the neighborhood bordering the campus of my alma mater. Amanda and her friend Ashley visited there about a year ago to see a band they like that was playing in what used to be a movie theater.

Would reading Ferlinghetti and Ginsberg and Burroughs, let alone Kerouac, be that exotic in 1959, though? That would be like a college student today reading David Foster Wallace or Thomas Pynchon or Cormac McCarthy -- or me reading Tom Wolfe or Joan Didion in the late '70s -- intellectually stimulating for sure, but hardly "plumbing the depths of world literature." More like "books that were popular among smart college students of his day."

I tried reading On the Road when I was in my mid-20s and wound up throwing it across the room. It's one of those books you have to read when you're really young or forget it.

[Front-Ranger]

And a belated happy birthday to the man himself! But, since Bob Dylan is living life backwards, he can celebrate his birthday today too-- ("I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.")

[serious crayons]

And a belated happy birthday to the man himself! But, since Bob Dylan is living life backwards, he can celebrate his birthday today too-- ("I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.")

I saw a movie in which that happened to Brad Pitt ("Benjamin Button"). It ends sadly, though, with the protagonist a baby who no longer recognizes his lifelong friend, a woman who was his romantic partner for the brief period their ages coincided.