Author Topic: The Pentecost scene, again..  (Read 11796 times)

Offline j.U.d.E.

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The Pentecost scene, again..
« on: May 03, 2006, 06:58:37 pm »
I'm still intrigued about why this scene seems so very important - in so many ways.. I mean, we do get to know a very important fact - Ennis is still a virgin, but I was thinking about something else. You have two young strapping lads involved in a serious conversation and yet, there's never any 'girl talk' as you might think 19 year old guys would have.

Same thing when in an earlier scene, Ennis tells Jack about him getting married to Alma in November and Jack not reacting at all! Rather he continues bitching about Aguirre. Also, the look we have on Ennis' face right then, suggests to me, that this non-girl-talk from Jack might have been a first hint, that 'girls' don't interest Jack.

And one more thing - what on earth is Ennis poking at the fire all through the Pentecost scene?! It looks like it isn't even the fire he's aiming.. Is he nervous? About what?

~ j U d E
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TJ

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2006, 07:18:44 pm »
The Pentecost scene was an embellishment created for the movie. All of the dialog in that scene is not even in the original Annie Proulx story where even Ennis sang, too.

We might assume that Ennis Del Mar was a virgin sexually speaking by what is implied; but, I am not sure that he really was. Because the book's Ennis knew why he had the clear slick (at the end of his penis) which helped some as lubrication and he knew that he needed spit for extra lubrication, I think that Ennis was not a virgin when it came to being with guys.

Annie Proulx mentions Ennis being engaged to Alma in her introduction of Ennis and Jack at Aguirre's trailer.

But, bookwise, we only know that up on Brokeback Ennis had talked about Alma and him getting married  when the guys are about ready to DRIVE their pickup trucks off in opposite directions after getting paid in August.

The fire poking might have just been something that Heath Ledger decided to do.

Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2006, 07:41:36 pm »
Interesting TJ!

Quote
I think that Ennis was not a virgin when it came to being with guys
You're saying what here? That Ennis had had sex with other guys before Jack? Hmm? All this time I was thinking at how Ennis' first sexual experience was with a guy, then Alma for a while.. and his last time with a guy again (Jack obviously). Then after Jack's death, to me it's like - that's it - Ennis will never again be with anyone again. I can't picture it.

I've read the novel twice (only), but my memory is like a sieve..

Quote
The fire poking might have just been something that Heath Ledger decided to do.
Could be. Like the idea. We all know how 'fidgety' Heath can be.. Cute.

~ j U d E
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*15 jan 1929 - †04 apr 1968 | *04 apr 1979 - † 22 jan 2008 | *04 aug 1961 -

Offline cmr107

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2006, 08:48:28 pm »
We might assume that Ennis Del Mar was a virgin sexually speaking by what is implied; but, I am not sure that he really was. Because the book's Ennis knew why he had the clear slick (at the end of his penis) which helped some as lubrication and he knew that he needed spit for extra lubrication, I think that Ennis was not a virgin when it came to being with guys.

I'd like to point out the line "nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed."

TJ

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2006, 09:05:07 pm »
I'd like to point out the line "nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed."

Yes, I know that line; but, I think that Annie Proulx was using irony here and conjunction "but" implies that she is. I have heard people say the opposite of what they meant or even read in other people's writings where a statement like what you quoted was made and the author contradicted it in the text later.

I am not that familiar with Annie Proulx's writings; and I have a problem keeping concentration for very long in books these days. But, I did look at some of her works in the Central branch of the local library system and it seems that she wrote Brokeback Mountain differently than what I was able to read in the shelved books of hers.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2006, 09:35:46 pm »
Sorry, but I'm not really following what difference the "but" conjunction and the ironic tone make. It seems pretty clear to me that "Nothing he'd done before" means Ennis had never before done what he was about to do to Jack.

As to whether Ennis in the story was a complete virgin--had never been with a woman--I'm not sure we really have any evidence to go on to draw a conclusion. Ennis in the story was 19-going-on-20 at that time. If he was anything like me, by that age he may have been "wringing it out" for years and new perfectly well what the "clear slick" was. He'd also been working on ranches since he was about 14, so he must have heard older hands talking and joking.

I think Movie Ennis's remark to Jack about never having had the opportunity for sinning is a pretty clear indication that he's a virgin--a remarkable admission by a 19- or 20-year-old and, I think, an indication of how close he had grown to Jack. This could well be a difference between the two Ennises, Story and Movie, that is, maybe Story Ennis wasn't a virgin and Movie Ennis was.

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline RouxB

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2006, 12:45:34 am »
I am also of the virgin interpretation and certainly as it pertains to men. Remember this is 1963 and, unlike today, every teenager in America was not having sex. There is nothing in the story and nothing in the build-up to the first tent scene to suggest that Ennis had any sexual experience much less with a man. To suggest that he did, IMO, kind of trivalizes his relationship with Jack. Jack was EVERYTHING to Ennis-friend, confidant, lover-in the way that only first experiences are. And in the context of the time, I don't think it would be at all unusual for Alma to be a virgin as well.

As for the scene, I think it was to show their growing bond-Ennis "playing drums" to Jack's singing and the sweetness and honesty of their gazes when Ennis says "I ain't yet had the opportunity" and Jack goes " hmmmm". And, contrary to some posts, I don't see this as a pick-up line by any stretch of the imagination. Also, a foreboding of Jack's death.
 O0

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Offline cmr107

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2006, 12:51:59 am »
Yes, Jeff and Ruby. Exactly.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2006, 01:00:49 am »
maybe Story Ennis wasn't a virgin and Movie Ennis was.

Funny, Jeff! They really are starting to seem like two completely separate characters.

Here are my votes: Was he a virgin with women? Maybe. With men? Yes. Is virginity what he was referring to? Probably. Was it deliberate flirting? No. Unconscious flirting? Possibly. Indication of close friendship? You bet.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 01:18:32 am by latjoreme »

TJ

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Re: The Pentecost scene, again..
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2006, 01:57:20 am »
I just looked at the short story again a few hours ago and while the movie seems to show that "Ennis got that opportunity to sin" that night with Jack after he sang "Water-Walking Jesus," what is in the next book paragraph implies that it was not on the same night.

The discussion of what "Pentecost" meant is not in Annie Proulx's story.

This paragraph is from page 13 of the 2005 paperback book edition of the story.

Quote
The summer went on and they moved the herd to new pasture, shifted the camp; the distance between the sheep and the new camp was greater and the night ride longer.
Ennis rode easy, sleeping with his eyes open, but the hours he was away from the sheep stretched out and out. Jack pulled a squalling burr out of the harmonica, flattened a little from a fall off the skittish bay mare, and Ennis had a good raspy voice; a few nights they mangled their way through some songs. Ennis knew the salty words to "Strawberry Roan." Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling "what I say-ay-ay," but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost, that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.
   "Too late to go out to them damn sheep," said Ennis, dizzy drunk on all fours one cold hour when the moon had notched past two. The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes. "Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks, ride out at first light."


Notice in the quoted paragraphs, everything does not happen all at the same time. I interpret that "one cold hour when the moon had notched past two" as a different night than the times where they were doing the singing of some songs. Notice that they did not sing songs only one time or that Jack was the only one singing.