Author Topic: Am I the only person...  (Read 17295 times)

TJ

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2006, 05:55:52 pm »
Read the Annie Proulx's book and you will see that Lureen (no maiden name given) Twist was self-centered and was not devoted/dedicated in her life to Jack or their son at all.

As to what cultural/educational/social grouping Lureen belonged in Childress, Texas, the book does not say. Owners of farm and equipment companies don't necessarily have social status in a community.

I am an ol' fuddy-duddy here in regard the up-dated definition borrowed-from-some-webster's interpretation of the word, "gay." (The word "Webster's" is in the public domain. Anyone can make up a dictionary and use it in the title.)

Ennis Del Mar, because he was in complete denial of his homosexual orientation, was not gay. He was not happy at all and feared for his live because of his sexual orientation. I don't think he was bisexual however; I have known quite a few homosexual men who had been heterosexually married, all for the wrong reasons, too.

And on another note with modern usage/misapplication of words, all heterosexuals are not "straight." One who is "straight" is one who always tries to do the right things."

In their original definitions, "gay" is not the opposite of "straight."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2006, 06:06:54 pm »
Secretly, I'm with you, Spark.  I get especially annoyed at those who contend that Ennis "wasn't really gay."  Yeah, OK.  And based on their "logic," Lureen really wasn't straight, either.  In her own way, she too dedicated her entire adult life to Jack, but had she not met him, she would have been with other women.   ::)

I'd *really* like to see that one laid to rest.

Where do you guys hear arguments like this? I don't talk about the movie anywhere except here. I haven't been to imdb in days or weeks. I stopped mentioning it to friends and family long ago. So I rarely hear those really ridiculous claims anymore.

Offline RouxB

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2006, 06:09:23 pm »
Well Barby-the argument is about to be set up because one of those "holy grail" interpretations that I can find a way to ague was juuuusssstttt offered in one of the previous 4 posts... hmmm what could it be?

Some swear that when Ennis was minding the sheep during Aguire's visit, one of the sheep whispered to Ennis "Jack loves you, go to him, s'alright". I'm not sure if I heard it, my DVD is kinda dark  ;)

 O0


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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2006, 06:27:39 pm »
I don't hear it here, of course, Katherine.  But I've heard it in the past on the IMDb board and from people I know personally who've seen the movie - one who loved it and has seen it many times and one who didn't like it much at all.  The argument is that Ennis wasn't really gay - that had he not met and fallen in love with Jack, he would have been perfectly fine with being just with women.  Now to the extent that it took Jack's dedication and perserverence to bring the real Ennis out, I can agree that he most likely never would have been with a man sexually if not for Jack.  But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have deep down wanted to.  Your orientation is your orientation.  You can deny it, but you cannot change it.  It'd be like trying to will your irises to be blue instead of brown.

TJ, I was just making the flipside Lureen argument to show how ludicrous the former is.  Sorry I wasn't more clear on that one.  Believe me, I know she wasn't really dedicated to Jack.  :)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2006, 08:31:16 pm »
I don't hear it here, of course, Katherine.  But I've heard it in the past on the IMDb board and from people I know personally who've seen the movie - one who loved it and has seen it many times and one who didn't like it much at all.  The argument is that Ennis wasn't really gay - that had he not met and fallen in love with Jack, he would have been perfectly fine with being just with women.  Now to the extent that it took Jack's dedication and perserverence to bring the real Ennis out, I can agree that he most likely never would have been with a man sexually if not for Jack.  But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have deep down wanted to.  Your orientation is your orientation.  You can deny it, but you cannot change it.  It'd be like trying to will your irises to be blue instead of brown.

TJ, I was just making the flipside Lureen argument to show how ludicrous the former is.  Sorry I wasn't more clear on that one.  Believe me, I know she wasn't really dedicated to Jack.  :)

Oh, I know the gist of the argument. I remember it plenty from imdb. It's silly, and it ignores any number of clues in the movie.

But Lureen wasn't really dedicated to Jack? Hunh? Or am I not getting your meaning?

TJ

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2006, 08:39:07 pm »
The homophobic so-called "Christian" fundamentalist religious right believe that no "one is really gay/homosexual;" they believe that they are rebelling agains the way God created them to be naturally. Those ignorant people go so far to say that homosexuality does not occur in nature and only human beings have homosexual sex.

They also believe that there are only two genders, male and female, too, not only in the animal kingdom, in humans, too. Because they literally believe the part of the Bible where it says when God created man, he created them male and female.

Those people have never even lived on a farm. I have seen young bulls who more interested in each other sexually than a heifer who was ready to be bred when I was on the farm.

Offline silkncense

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2006, 11:34:46 pm »
"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." -- Annie Proulx

By the way Annie Proulx writes it seems clear that she does not intend to make every point/action/intention or result specific. 

That to me is the ultimate beauty and intelligence of her writing.
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

TJ

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2006, 12:37:24 am »
 
"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." -- Annie Proulx
 
Annie Proulx wrote Brokeback Mountain as an outsider, a heterosexual woman, looking on. I actually like the way that she did that.

Annie Proulx has admitted that she did not have all the answers to questions that she had about her subjects of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist.

But, as a person who has had two courses related to literary criticism (one secular and one religious), one needs to try to understand the life experience, prejudices, the world view and the thoughts of the author of the original work first of all.

But, I have found on the internet in various forum boards (not so much in this one) and in Yahoo discussion groups related to BbM that some women who are admittedly exclusively heterosexual in their sexual orientation think they know everything that there is to know about men who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual orientation. They even think they know gays better than gays know themselves.

Offline Meryl

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2006, 01:22:49 am »
My beef is not with people who see the movie and come up with all these wacky theories.  It's with people who make assumptions without seeing it at all.

How can you argue with someone who refuses to see it because it shows men in intimate situations and has the nerve to make them sympathetic?  What's more, they look on you as some sort of wacko/perv for liking a movie with such a distasteful subject.

It's alright to laugh at homosexuals in our homophobic society, but treat them seriously, in a critically-acclaimed vehicle, and the walls go up pronto.   People start saying that it's liberal propaganda, it has an "agenda," etc., etc.  They act like it's an attack instead of a movie.

I don't go to horror movies because I find them distasteful, so I can't really condemn people for not wanting to see something they don't think they'll enjoy.  But that doesn't stop me being angry at them and at our society for making this beautiful film out to be something nasty and corrupting.   It's just so wrong!!  >:(
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2006, 01:57:54 am »
How can you argue with someone who refuses to see it because it shows men in intimate situations and has the nerve to make them sympathetic?  What's more, they look on you as some sort of wacko/perv for liking a movie with such a distasteful subject.

It's alright to laugh at homosexuals in our homophobic society, but treat them seriously, in a critically-acclaimed vehicle, and the walls go up pronto.   People start saying that it's liberal propaganda, it has an "agenda," etc., etc.  They act like it's an attack instead of a movie.

I just don't have time for people like that. I am as contemptuous of them as I am for racists or any other bigots. I don't take them seriously, don't consider it worth my time to engage them in argument. I don't agree that this movie promotes any specific "agenda" -- but so what if it did? It would be a perfectly legitimate agenda to promote!!! I don't go to horror movies either, but I don't consider watching people chop each other up to be anywhere near in the same category as watching men in love. (I know you don't either, Meryl, but the point is, don't let yourself get sidetracked by that analogy -- it is ridiculous; this goes way beyond matters of cinematic taste.) To consider those people's point of view worth debating is giving it way too much credibility. They are idiots. Treat them with the contempt they deserve.


« Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 08:21:44 am by latjoreme »