Author Topic: Black Hats, White Hats  (Read 61405 times)

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2006, 12:41:34 am »
Person two, "Just because, no reason. I just did it."

I think you're being a little unfair here TJ.  No one here is saying things just are and for no reason.

The concept of Yin & Yang is not Chinese, only the expression is.  You yourself provided a more cowboy-like way of expressing the same concept so there's no reason it could not be applied to BBM.  We just use Y&Y because we know and understand the term, but if you want you could just as eaily replace it with Horse & Wagon and you'd have the exact same conversation.

I also think you're missing the point that a discussion on symbols does not have to be based in fact or even in reality, and you certainly don't need knowledge of the film-makers intentions to have fun with it.  Seemingly arbitrary (beyond the aesthetic) set designs, lighting, costumes and accoutrements still had to be selected by someone, and with the degree of care for everything else in this film, why not consider that hat colour was part of that plan, or that a Y&Y (make that Horse & Wagon) relationship between Jack & Ennis was the intention?

The world is far more interesting than any of us give it credit for or could comprehend - this is just one way of exploring it.
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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2006, 03:33:19 am »
Speaking as an American who learned how to speak an syncretic version of Western Oklahoma and Eastern Oklahoma English before I attended public school and lived around small community and rural folk and having lived in the country, rural communities and small towns, where many of the students in the public schools and in college were from the very same kinds of places, I just look at things differently and speak from my own world point of view, too.

I was a full-time public school teacher in Southwestern Kansas in a very small town where most of the students lived out in the country. I was a teacher years later in SW Missouri where many of the students lived outside of the City limits. And the next school term, I was in NE Missouri where the Junior-Senior High School was literally in the country south of a town which had around 2,000 in population.

Besides working and living on farms in Oklahoma, I have also lived on a dairy in Northern California; worked in fruit orchards and vegetable farms in Oregon.

I don't consider myself to be better than anyone else. But, as an art student who studied design and composition and and also as a person who has some experience in the theatrical arts (I was a member of the players group in college and a member of the National Honorary Dramatic Fraternity - one has to be invited to join that after one has done so much work with on-campus productions, on stage and behind the scenes), I don't see why people have to explain why an artist, aka the director, Ang Lee, had to use an Asian philosophical context as a reason why he did things a certain way or why they just came out that way.

BTW, I have directed stage plays and I even designed the scene sets, too. I just created them the way I thought would look the best from the audience POV, composition and design wise, with no thought of philosophy whatsoever.

Offline RouxB

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2006, 03:49:27 am »
BTW, I have directed stage plays and I even designed the scene sets, too. I just created them the way I thought would look the best from the audience POV, composition and design wise, with no thought of philosophy whatsoever.

But Ang Lee is not you ???


 O0

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TJ

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2006, 03:59:01 am »
But Ang Lee is not you ???


 O0

EXACTLY! And not you, neither!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2006, 09:56:15 am »
TJ, if works of art -- movies, books, paintings -- never contain metaphors and subtexts and layers of meaning beneath the surface, then artists and critics and college professors have been wasting a hell of a lot of time over hundreds of years.

Many movies, probably most movies, can be fully understood just by watching what's on the screen and listening to the dialogue, just like many books don't mean much beyond the obvious words on the page. But clearly, great works of literature go a lot deeper than that. And if you refuse to acknowledge that any meaning lies beneath those superficial elements in Brokeback Mountain, IMO you're missing half the movie.

We don't know exactly what Ang Lee meant by everything -- that's the nature of metaphors and subtexts in art. They're SUPPOSED to be complex and ambiguous, not spell things out. So yeah, we're analyzing and debating and wondering. But it's beyond doubt that there's SOMETHING there, that he hopes we'll look for it and that doing so will enrich our experience.

Incidentally, there was an article on Slate around Oscar time about how costume designers like to make subtle comments on their characters through their choices of clothing colors, styles, etc. The point of the piece, in fact, was that although costume-design Oscars usually go to spectacular period pieces such as Memoirs of a Geisha, the costumers themselves actually aren't fond of those movies because, with all the historical frou-frou, there's no room for those subtle distinctions. Here's the link, if you're interested: http://www.slate.com/id/2137272/




Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2006, 12:01:51 pm »
Hi, and welcome! Yes it makes sense to me! Looking forward to hearing more from you. I like your signature!
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2006, 12:47:17 pm »
OH-MY-GOD.  I think this is HUGE!  And why on Earth did I never notice it before???

To me, throughout the movie, Jack always wearing solid shirts symbolizes his security in his sexuality.  Ennis always wearing light, patterned shirts symbolizes his lack thereof.  If he's wearing a solid shirt in the pie scene and in the Lightning Flat scene, even if it is light in color (and all the more appropriate, really), this CLINCHES that he was ready to accept himself as he was and therefore possibly make a go of having a life with Jack.

HOLY crap.  Now I've gotta watch it again tonight.  DARN you, Katherine!  ;)

WHAO! just when I thought all the observations have been made.  :) Will have to pop the dvd in later on tonight.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2006, 01:02:47 pm »
This discussion reminds me of an conversation which I have heard lots of times when a person inquired why someone did something a certain way.

Person one, "Why did you do that?"

Person two, "'Cause."

Person one, "'Cause why?"

Person two, "Just because, no reason. I just did it."

with most other directors, I'd agree with that. but with Ang Lee, I don't. He's known to be a very meticulous director. Actors that have worked with him have said that he's the kind of artist that give thoughts to every detail. For him, "no reason. I just did it." is not the usual mode. In addition, the use of black hat/white hat is too prominent in the film to not have meanings. In the world how many colors of cowboy hats is there? yet in the film the majority of hats are black or white. Visually, it dares us to dig for reasons. If the yin/yang theory doesn't sit with you, then perhaps you can offer another.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2006, 03:10:58 pm »
That is an excellent observation, Barb!
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2006, 03:30:41 pm »
Barb, I've never been so pleased to be cursed! ;)

I LOVE your interpretation. I hope I'm right about when he wears the solid color. I know for sure he does in the pie scene, but I haven't seen the movie in weeks, and my memory of what he's wearing at the Twists is not trustworthy. I went to my old reliable reference source, YouTube, and the site is down. So Barb, you and other DVD-owners will have to check it out and report back!

Well, here is my report after last night's viewing.  He is wearing a patterned shirt underneath a light grey canvas jacket.  But the interesting thing about the patterned shirt is that the stripes are so close together as to seem almost solid.  So it's certainly the most solid shirt he wears in the entire movie.  I like to think this means that he wasn't quite there yet - but almost.  Another thing I noticed about this ensemble is that he seems to have *the exact same* one on in the Lightning Flat scene, as if he contacted Jack's parents (Mrs. Twist looks like she expects him when she comes to the door) immediately after getting off the phone with Lureen, got in his truck, and drove straight there.

And I noticed something in an early scene that I don't remember anyone mentioning before:  Jack says to Ennis in the bar, "My second summer up here - last summer - one lightning storm killed 42 sheep..."  He has worked for Aguirre TWICE before, not just the previous summer.  Yes, that's an assumption on my part - it could have been some other guy the summer before.  But if it is Aguirre, they have quite the history, do they not?
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