Cellar Scribblings

[Front-Ranger]

I may have read this wrong, but I think Chuck said two guys from his league were getting married, so no giving the bride away or other patriarchal bs, hopefully. And, something you could do someday.

Chuck, what is that brick about? Companies come up with the darndest things that they think will motivate their employees! When I was laid off, it took me a couple of years before I could get rid of a box of heavy trophies, a lot of metal and acrylic that could be of no use to anybody.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I may have read this wrong, but I think Chuck said two guys from his league were getting married, so no giving the bride away or other patriarchal bs, hopefully. And, something you could do someday.

Chuck, what is that brick about? Companies come up with the darndest things that they think will motivate their employees! When I was laid off, it took me a couple of years before I could get rid of a box of heavy trophies, a lot of metal and acrylic that could be of no use to anybody.

Katherine said she likes weddings when friends are there. I was responding to her comment. I said I hated weddings, and then I said what I hated about straight weddings. I did not address same-sex weddings, though in point of fact I'm not particularly fond of those either. A particular friend in whose wedding I participated would be very hurt if he knew this. I get that he meant it as an honor, and I appreciate his intention, and I did what was asked of me and kept my mouth shut otherwise, but I still felt uncomfortable. I don't see marriage as a sacramental rite, and I see no need for weddings--as opposed to marriages--any longer. I'll pass, thank you. But when you get invited, you go, because that's what you do.

And what do you mean by something I could do someday? Give a bride away? As for me marrying--seriously? I'm almost 61 years old, and there is not likely to be anyone in my life for however much time is left to me. I've accepted that, though I am not happy about it.

[Front-Ranger]

Oh, God, I hate 'em. Hate 'em.

Tell you what, I'm perfectly aware that a lot of that is because I'll never have one of my own--i.e., jealousy.

As I said in my last post, I may have read this wrong, but to me, it seems like you're saying you hate weddings (hate 2x + "God") because you're jealous of the couple getting married, because you feel like you are denied the chance to do the same. However, it is now the law of the land that men and women can marry a person of their own sex in every state of the union. So, when you say, "I'll never have one of my own" that is a self-imposed restriction, is it not? I mean, since old-fashioned homophobic restrictions have been removed, gay people of all ages and backgrounds are stepping up to get married. There is a pent-up demand.

And there's another reason why older gay people are marrying, sadly. Because their earlier partners have passed away. Gay people, like anyone, want companionship and someone to share the load and, yes, care for them in their later years. Out there, there are thousands of older gay people who are alone and they don't like it one bit. And even though these people might be imperfect to look at, they have interesting souls and the ability to love and give of themselves.

But some of them just wouldn't be satisfied with a person about the same age, or even older than them. And so they remain single. That's fine with me. I want to remain single myself. I could get married again (I am several years older than you) but I don't want to. But on the other hand, I'm not going to hate or send negative messages to those wonderful people like John Laidler and Chuck who spent their honeymoon at the Brokeback BBQ and are both retired. I'm going to be happy for them, and take hope, and dance at their wedding.

[Jeff Wrangler]

As I said in my last post, I may have read this wrong, but to me, it seems like you're saying you hate weddings (hate 2x + "God") because you're jealous of the couple getting married, because you feel like you are denied the chance to do the same. However, it is now the law of the land that men and women can marry a person of their own sex in every state of the union. So, when you say, "I'll never have one of my own" that is a self-imposed restriction, is it not? I mean, since old-fashioned homophobic restrictions have been removed, gay people of all ages and backgrounds are stepping up to get married. There is a pent-up demand.

I freely admitted to jealousy, but to say "I'll never have one of my own" is not, or may not be, a "self-imposed restriction" because of the simple fact that it takes two people to make a marriage. I don't see a wedding and a marriage as the same thing. I would gladly have a marriage, just not a wedding. (Get the license, find someone with the authority to make it legal, then go have a nice dinner with friends, that's what I'd like.) Sure, "There are thousands of older gay people who are alone and they don't like it one bit," but I'm afraid I'm not getting your point. The removal of legal prohibitions is just that, the removal of legal prohibitions. It doesn't make it any easier to get married, except in a legal sense.

There comes a time when hope is merely self-delusion. I reached that point a couple of years ago. It then became time to accept reality. It must be nice to have the option of not marrying if you don't want to marry.

[serious crayons]

BUT: All the outdated patriarchal shit that's gone on at all the straight weddings I've attended makes me want to barf. I'm surprised the groom doesn't have to hand over a bride price (cows? goats? sheep?) in front of the whole assembly before the wedding can proceed. The worst of all is "giving away the bride." Why not sell her and at least make some money off the proceedings? That might help pay for it. Doesn't the bride's family pay for it anyway?

I like that you're objecting to them on feminist grounds, but most straight weddings these days tone down the patriarchal shit. Yes, "giving the bride away" dates back to a time when women were more or less literally owned by first their father then their husband. Most people recognize that a lot has changed (at least in this country), so at this point that connection is dim at best. I think the tradition lives on because brides want a family loved one (their father or someone else) to be involved in the ceremony in some special way.

Straight couples do just about anything at weddings these days. About 25 years ago I went to a wedding of close friends where the only people there were the couple, me and my husband (serving as matron of honor and best man), the bride's 10-year-old daughter and a minister. We went out in their backyard, held the short service, then went inside and watched a baseball game on TV and BBQed.

My own wedding, qlsoo 25 years ago, was semi-traditional but quirky. My former roommate, who'd just graduated from a Unitarian seminary (and was gay, FWIW), officiated at my mom's Unitarian church. We wrote the non-patriarchal vows. A couple of musician friends played a lovely gentle song on acoustic guitar by a local rock band we liked. One friend read a passage from Wuthering Heights, one of my favorite books as a kid, and another friend read from (who else? it was Unitarian church) Walt Whitman. The ceremony was so short that as we emerged from the church we passed some friends who were just arriving.

My dad did "give me away" though (my husband and I had been living together for several years, so it obviously wasn't remotely literal). And he paid for the reception in a ballroom, which was kind of fancy but relaxed and really, really fun. I've had friends say they had more fun at my wedding than at their own.

I'm afraid I'm not getting your point. The removal of legal prohibitions is just that, the removal of legal prohibitions. It doesn't make it any easier to get married, except in a legal sense.

... There comes a time when hope is merely self-delusion. I reached that point a couple of years ago. It then became time to accept reality. It must be nice to have the option of not marrying if you don't want to marry.

Those are two different things, of course: whether you can legally get married and whether you have someone to marry. The legal part is taken care of. The mate part has not, but it seems like Lee is suggesting that it's always possible. After all, she started seeing R when she was about your age, or possibly a little older.

So technically it's never too late. But if you've decided that it is, then maybe it is.




 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Straight couples do just about anything at weddings these days. About 25 years ago I went to a wedding of close friends where the only people there were the couple, me and my husband (serving as matron of honor and best man), the bride's 10-year-old daughter and a minister. We went out in their backyard, held the short service, then went inside and watched a baseball game on TV and BBQed.

That sounds very nice. I would like something like that. I might skip the baseball game, though. 

another friend read from (who else? it was Unitarian church) Walt Whitman.

I've heard that Unitarians read more from Walt Whitman than they do from the Bible. Just sayin.' 

But it seems like Lee is suggesting that it's always possible. After all, she started seeing R when she was about your age, or possibly a little older.

I took that as her point. I don't want to put words into her post, but I took it as she believes it's always possible. I disagree. And I believe that to believe it beyond a certain point in one's life when it has not happened is self-delusion. There are always exceptions, of course.

So technically it's never too late. But if you've decided that it is, then maybe it is.

Yes, it is.

[Front-Ranger]

....I took it as she believes it's always possible. I disagree. And I believe that to believe it beyond a certain point in one's life when it has not happened is self-delusion. There are always exceptions, of course.

No, I don't believe that it is always possible for a person in their 60s or older to start to love another person and want to join with them. The reason I don't believe that is because of the thinking in your third sentence. If a person firmly rejects the idea or possibility, then it is impossible for it to happen. And another key is contained in the last part of that sentence where you say "when it has not happened." If a person is waiting around for love to just happen, and it hasn't happened, you're right, it's not going to "just happen." But love rarely comes like a prince on a white horse that got lost in the forest just when Briar Rose was washing strawberries in the pond and fell in. That only happens in Disney movies.

[CellarDweller]

Hiya BetterMost friends.

Oh, I can feel Friday coming!     This week has felt like a long one, so I'm glad it's almost over!


All this talk of weddings and whatnot, ending with Lee's post about a white knight, have reminded me of this song.....


Where have all the good men gone, And where are all the gods?
Where's the streetwise Hercules to fight the rising odds?
Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed?
Late at night I toss and I turn, And I dream of what I need

I need a hero, I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong, And he's gotta be fast, And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a hero, I'm holding out for a hero 'til the morning light
He's gotta be sure, And it's gotta be soon, And he's gotta be larger than life!  Larger than life

[serious crayons]

No, I don't believe that it is always possible for a person in their 60s or older to start to love another person and want to join with them. The reason I don't believe that is because of the thinking in your third sentence. If a person firmly rejects the idea or possibility, then it is impossible for it to happen.

Just as it's always at least somewhat possible to win a lottery (chances >0) unless you never buy a ticket, in which case it is impossible. And I think the love odds are slightly better than the lottery odds. Heck, people start love affairs in senior residences!

[serious crayons]

I've heard that Unitarians read more from Walt Whitman than they do from the Bible. Just sayin.' 

It's possible you heard that from me, as I say it all the time, including here.