Author Topic: Do You Support The Death Penalty?  (Read 166273 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #280 on: November 16, 2007, 11:33:58 am »
I would argue that in all of these cases - losing a sense of right and wrong (remorse), losing touch with your feelings and self-worth, compartmentalizing so you're able to function in your job - are all examples of losing touch with our humanity.  So to summarize, society is made up of individuals and there is collective damage being done to our psyches.  I am still worried about the humanity of the people who administer the death penalty - what that must do to them - unless they are sociopaths themselves, I cannot imagine that they're unscathed.

Lynne, I found your entire post -- and particularly the paragraph above -- very eloquent.




Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #281 on: November 16, 2007, 12:11:31 pm »
So to tell them that their actions contribute to society losing its 'humanity piece by piece' or that they're 'uncivilized' is not only insensitve but offensive.


I do think that their actions contribute to society losing some of its humanity. I do believe the death penalty takes any society in a less civilized direction. And I do personally find that societies with a legal system founded on the idea of "killing to demonstrate that it's wrong to kill" (not to at all mention those societies that practice killing because it's wrong to commit adultery, leave one's religion, be actively homosexual etc etc) is less civilized than those who do not administer capital punishment.  I would not and have never gone to the step of pointing to each single person involved to say he/she is uncivilized, though I do think the combined system is certainly so. It is inhumane, in some cases even barbaric. Still there is the Nuremberg principle to remember: Whether someone goes along and "just follow orders" or if he/she's actively believing in or contributing to upholding the status quo of active use of capital punishment, then that person has his or her direct share of the responsibility.

I do not think it's insensitive to voice my opinion, and I've tried to maintain a reasonable and calm tone in my posts  - I'm certainly not trying to be offensive. However, in weighing the tender sensibilities of a person administering the death penalty against speaking up for someone about to be put to death, I have to chose the the latter even if the former is offended.  I would think that someone who is able to live with the fact that he/she is a direct contributor to administering the death penalty would also be able to hear an opinion such as mine voiced without being hurt and taking offense.



Lynne, thank you sincerely for expressing so well what I also think. Especially the paragraph that Crayons also pointed to.  :)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #282 on: November 16, 2007, 01:19:15 pm »
And I do personally find that societies with a legal system founded on the idea of "killing to demonstrate that it's wrong to kill" (not to at all mention those societies that practice killing because it's wrong to commit adultery, leave one's religion, be actively homosexual etc etc) is less civilized than those who do not administer capital punishment.

Mikaela, to me this sentence expresses not only the moral problem with capital punishment, but the practical one as well. As long as a society promotes killing as an acceptable solution to bad behavior, there will be murderers who essentially think they can judge bad behavior just as well as the government does. They may not rationalize it quite that clearly in their minds, but in effect that's what happens -- citizens are socialized to see killing as within the bounds of reasonable human conduct.

For the same reason you don't teach children not to hit by hitting them, you don't as a society promote violence if you don't want a violent society overall.




Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #283 on: November 16, 2007, 03:36:56 pm »
Citizens are socialized to see killing as within the bounds of reasonable human conduct.


Yes! That's just it.

I've been mulling this over and I realized that this is one thing that to me clearly illustrates the "dehumanizing" aspect on society of the active use of the death penalty: People become used to it. The act of actually taking someone's life is just another way of administering justice, nothing very special,  nothing to wrestle with one's conscience over. It becomes the order of the day - the focus turns to practical problems of how to kill effectively and efficiently rather than the ethical dilemmas inherent in killing at all.  :-\


I am not American, and I do not live in America, so I should of course be careful in making statements about public sentiment in the US. But Norway is fairly innundated with American culture; - we get most of the TV shows (even John Stewart now, whose program is very "internally American"), all the popular TV series, all the motion pictures....  So as far as it's fair to consider such cultural expressions as indicative of the attitudes in the American mainstream public, I've noticed this: In the American popular culture we are exposed to, the death penalty does not seem to be controversial at all. Though profoundly disturbing to me, it is presented on US TV as accepted and acceptable. As commonplace, a fact of life, nothing to spend mental resources on. That indicates to me that a certain dehumanizing effect from the use of capital punishment must have taken place in the US.

In various movies and in cop shows or legal shows or other types of show, - even those directed more at families and women, - any plot that involves the death penalty does not revolve around conscientious, humane and moral objectons to the death penalty per se, - but to the possibility that an innocent person has been or will be sentenced to death.

Once the right perpetrator has been identified, the main characters (with whom the audience is supposed to identify) just go their merry way without seeming to consider the ethical aspects of the guilty party's upcoming capital punishment. The death sentence is just kind of taken for granted.

I have seen various episodes of shows a la CSI where this has been evident, as well as (off the top of my head) episodes of "Judging Amy" and "Medium". And I do not watch that many TV shows, just an episode here and there. It seems unlikely that I've just happened to stumble across the few American movies and shows that happened to let the main characters be unbothered by the existence of the death penalty. 

The only show I can recall that had an episode where the death penalty was presented as difficult on the conscience, something more than a practical problem, - actually as a tough moral dilemma, - is "The West Wing". There was an episode fairly early in the series where president Bartlet personally had to decide whether to change the death sentence of a federal convict to life or let his execution go ahead. Bartlet struggled with this, and consulted various religious leaders, - but in the end he let the execution take place. I remember feeling so let down - that even that early more liberal version of "The West Wing" didn't have the courage to let the main character be seen to be "weak" - that is; humane and to stop an execution and save a life.  :(






Offline louisev

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #284 on: November 16, 2007, 03:39:05 pm »
I read a very interesting Slate.com piece about the current moratorium on lethal injection executions imposed by the Supreme Court.  The columnist implied that while many conservatives are in favor of capital punishment, the issue of executions themselves is something almost universally avoided, and we could see a prolonged moratorium.  I found this a very interesting development.

http://www.slate.com/id/2176196/
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #285 on: November 16, 2007, 04:15:35 pm »
I am not American, and I do not live in America, so I should of course be careful in making statements about public sentiment in the US. But Norway is fairly innundated with American culture; - we get most of the TV shows (even John Stewart now, whose program is very "internally American"), all the popular TV series, all the motion pictures....  So as far as it's fair to consider such cultural expressions as indicative of the attitudes in the American mainstream public, I've noticed this: In the American popular culture we are exposed to, the death penalty does not seem to be controversial at all. Though profoundly disturbing to me, it is presented on US TV as accepted and acceptable. As commonplace, a fact of life, nothing to spend mental resources on. That indicates to me that a certain dehumanizing effect from the use of capital punishment must have taken place in the US.

I don't think opposition here is as nonexistent as those TV shows suggest, but ... I was going to say that I thought American divisions over the death penalty more or less paralleled those on this thread. But then I thought I'd better do a little quick research. After all, BetterMost membership is presumably weighted to the left, which suggests death penalty opposition here would be higher than for the population as a whole.

I found a couple of articles, five or six years old, saying that the majority of Americans support the death penalty. But then I found one from last summer saying death-penalty support is in decline, and  55 percent of Americans now favor a moratorium. Apparently that is the result of all the exonerations that have occurred in recent years with the development of DNA analysis -- 87 percent now believe innocent people have been executed in recent years.

But 55 percent isn't a very strong proportion of opponents, and their reason for opposition -- while a good one -- is not the only problem. I was surprised myself by this. Another thing that surprised me was when I found that all but one of the Democratic presidential candidates -- even Hillary! even Obama! -- support the death penalty, at least in some cases. The exception is Chris Dodd, who is nowhere near a front runner.

I rarely see cop or legal shows, so I'm not familiar with how the issue is handled in the entertainment media. But I can imagine you're right, Mikaela, that the issue revolves more around potential innocence than the morality of the punishment in the first place.

You may have noticed that I like to stress, when discussing the death penalty, that I don't shed any tears for the individual criminals subjected to it. That's because I don't think you should have to feel sorry for someone in order to object to their life being taken. I hate what heinous criminals do. But their actions do not provide an excuse for us to descend to their level.




Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #286 on: November 16, 2007, 05:24:38 pm »
Quote
You may have noticed that I like to stress, when discussing the death penalty, that I don't shed any tears for the individual criminals subjected to it. That's because I don't think you should have to feel sorry for someone in order to object to their life being taken. I hate what heinous criminals do. But their actions do not provide an excuse for us to descend to their level.

By and large I would think this applies to most opponents of the death penalty.

( I also haven't at all been expecting those various TV and movie "good guys" to express sadness and sympathy for the convicted criminals (who true to current popular culture form will mostly have committed any number of sadistic and horrific murders), - but  I am as explained saddened that the plots nearly never involve anyone expressing or showing the least little moral qualm whatsoever related to the very inhumane existence of the death penalty. )

The two instances in recent years that I can recall creating strong waves of sympathy among people over here in respect of individuals sentenced to death in the US, was in the case of Karla Faye Tucker and especially Napoleon Beazley, who was sentenced to death for an admittedly vicious murder he committed while 17 years of age - and who was subsequently executed on May 28, 2002. That did get quite a lot of press here, he was interviewed in several papers, and people felt sorry for him, not just outraged in general at the existence of the death penalty.


Thanks for doing the quick research on this, Katherine. 55% is not a heartening percentage. Nor do I think the reasons for the current moratorium as put forth in the interesting but also chilling article Louise linked to are very heartening, but.... I suppose one shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth....

injest

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #287 on: November 16, 2007, 05:57:24 pm »
I don't like most TV crime dramas because they tend to approach moral issues in an alarmingly simply way.  In those shows most of us are good guys, the Cops are the heros, and they protect us from the bad guys.  They tell us that we have to watch out for those meanies over there.

But being a moral and decent person primarily entails finding and correcting fault within ourselves.  Most cop shows and shows like America's Most Wanted tell us we shouldn't be really all that concerned about policing our own behavior and motives.  They tell us that bad things are done by bad people, and they are separate and apart from us.  That way of thinking can lead to a kind of smug, self-rightous attitude I think.  And sumg, self-rightous people can do a lot of harm, even if they operate within the bounds of law.
Gary   

channeling Picard:

Villians that come in twirling their mustaches are easy to spot..the ones that come clothed in good deeds are harder to spot...and we must be eternally vigilant.

Too often people give away their rights to others because then they don't have to think about it....but too often the people that are willing to jump in and take over are the ones that have evil in their hearts...

and we don't see it til the damage is done.

to be honest the more I read the more ambivilent I feel. On the one hand I do believe there is a place for capital punishment...but on the other I don't want my husband to be the executioner...


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #288 on: November 16, 2007, 06:06:04 pm »
By and large I would think this applies to most or at least many opponents of the death penalty -in general also including me, as I trust has been apparent in my posts on this subject.

Well, I think sometimes the behavior of death-penalty opponents blurs the issue a bit. For example, when I see a candlelight vigil held on behalf of someone being executed I can't help feeling ambivalent. True, I would imagine that at least some if not most of those attending are stating objection to the death penalty in general, that they're mourning for society as opposed to that one person. And even among those mourning for that one person, many may be doing so in the terms discussed earlier on this thread, recognizing every individual's preciousness as a human being in a larger philosophical or theological sense. That's fine.

But I wouldn't attend one of those vigils. To me, it's too close to an expression of mourning for the individual rather than for the larger issues. Although I absolutely oppose executing heinous criminals or making them suffer, I don't mourn their deaths. Am I making any sense? If they were to fall off a cliff I wouldn't feel sad. The thought of their deeds -- for example, the image of that girl pleading for her life, and her mother later having to listen to the tape (of course I put myself in that mother's position and imagine what it would be like to hear my own child's screams; I'm choking up now even thinking of it hypothetically) -- is so horrifying that it overwhelms any sympathy I could feel.

Plus, it annoys me that death-penalty advocates are able to dismiss the opposition by labeling them "bleeding hearts" or accusing them of wanting to "coddle" criminals. To me, it's less about the death penalty hurting the criminal and more about the death penalty hurting all of us, and that's where the focus should lie. That, I think, is what many Americans don't understand and why they're disturbed by the thought of an innocent accidentally being executed rather than by the whole sordid policy itself.

So I think that although most opponents on this thread share my ideas about capital punishment demeaning society, I'm not sure everybody is equally indifferent as to the fate of the murderer.


moremojo

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #289 on: November 16, 2007, 06:11:43 pm »
to be honest the more I read the more ambivilent I feel. On the one hand I do believe there is a place for capital punishment...but on the other I don't want my husband to be the executioner...
This sentiment would suggest that you might do better to align yourself against capital punishment. That seems like a fairly good litmus test: If I can't do such and such, and can't bear my loved one to have to do such and such, then maybe such and such shouldn't be done by anyone.

This reminds me of my superduper rationalization against war: For any war, ask yourself, "Am I willing to die myself for this war?" If you cannot honestly answer in the affirmative, then any support you give to that war is hypocritical.

There are limitations to this kind or reasoning, of course. For example, I would rather die than ever pilot an airplane, yet airplane pilot is a useful and perhaps even necessary occupation. I'm glad someone can play that role, and that I'm not the one doing it.