Author Topic: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?  (Read 34911 times)

Offline twistedude

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #110 on: January 10, 2008, 07:29:56 am »
I think the author--and the film maker--left it intentionally ambiguous, but I think it is natural for people to form opinions, one way or the other. My opinion is: it was an accident. My stories say: it was murder. Go figure...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2008, 09:30:16 pm »
Wow JudgeHolden, what an essay.

I especially appreciate all your details relating to local culture, the historical context of the situation, and all the mechanical issues.

pnwDUDE

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2008, 11:20:06 pm »
You can argue all day on the percentages of gay men that experience anti-gay violence.  Those who are identifiably gay and do not fit gender norms are sadly lightning rods for such aggression, starting when they are very young, and likely to see danger as evr-present based on their experiences.  However, Jack Twist is not one of those.  

Quote
Gaybashing is rarely a crime of conspiracy, as any cop will tell you, its almost always a case of opportunity and group intoxication. Its like the old fire triangle, fuel, heat and oxygen, you need bigotry, booze, and opportunity.


It's my perception Ms. Proulxs story is about Ennis, not Jack. The movie goes into much about Jacks life that wasn't contained in her work. It's not so much about what happened to Jack or what I think happened to Jack, but what Ennis thinks happened to Jack.

JH, you are correct here. Jack did not fit any stereotype of those generally targeted with bigotry, hate, and violence or teasing for that matter. I suspect (only for this discussion because I have been happy with the 'it is about what Ennis though' theroy and can't bring myself to read slash of any kind cause I want the story to be as is) if Jack was killed because he was queer, it may have been that Randalls big mouthed wife picked up on what was going on and put someone up to it for her personal reasons.

Blatant, violent acts of physical injury toward gay men for no other reason other than they are gay--out steretypes or not--is very rare in this country. I know. I am in the field and I am very aware of national crime statistics. Most of the violence I have seen is what JudgeHolden describes in his fire tetrahedron theory is correct. Usually it has to do with a younger tweaker homosexual inner city hustler assaulting a gay man over a money dispute. The victim rarely tells the entire story, but one in my profession can sure read between the lines. In a lot of these cases, they are reported at gay bashings by the media and not the police. Groups take this, usually lock-step with the media cause it sells add space, as random killings of gay men. Aditionally, lots of attacks have been reported in parks or rest stops late at night. Always a story not reported in these cases. These attacks aren't as common today as 10 years ago. It's safer to hook up with a hustler without drugs/alcohol through Craigslist and such, so these meetings, usually in bars or on the street have dramatically decreased. Cruising rest stops and parks had dropped way off for the same reason. Guys don't need those places so much for sex anymore. I don't know of any conspiracies of guys getting together, hunting, and killing a gay man. And as JH pointed out, this was not the case with Matthew Shepard

Quote
Ultimately, I lean toward the random murder explanation, for a series of small reasons, all technical:
It was not clear who's tire and on what he was changing. Not 'he was changing his tire' but 'he was changin' a tire...'
While Lureen was describing the details in an almost scripted mono tone which would lead me to believe she got the story and she really didn't understand what happened, I think that it was a murder. Just because he was a gay man like Earl? I don't think so. Could he, drunked up, got frisky with some guy in a truck stop or parkinglot (usually guys who are violent toward guys like Jack in these circumstances are homosexual and very homophobic)? Perhaps.

I still like to stay with I don't know and I don't care what happened to Jack. Ennis thought he was tire ironed by a group of bigoted homophobes, so be it.

Thanks for the great and in depth essay JudgeHolden. It took lots of time to put it together and it is very thought provoking.

Brad

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2008, 11:28:53 pm »
JH, you are correct here. Jack did not fit any stereotype of those generally targeted with bigotry, hate, and violence or teasing for that matter.

Tell you what, I'm not questioning anybody here, but reading this suddenly reminded me/made me think that Earl and Rich probably didn't fit any common stereotype either. Remember, they ran a ranch, and Ennis describes them as "tough old birds," yet they were still "the joke of town." And look what happened to Earl. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #114 on: January 10, 2008, 11:44:24 pm »
Thanks Jeff! Thanks also to all others!! Interesting!!

Jack was certainly a target for straights or others to murder him because he was a gay man or bi-man!! Right?

Yes, and look what happened to Earl! As you say Jeff... you said well too!! I ask: Why was Earl murdered?

What I dislike about the BM movie is that in the trailer Earl is shown in an negative light!!

Awaiting your replies, etc.,

hugs!!  May gay men be safe in the whole world!! Straights be safe too!!

pnwDUDE

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #115 on: January 10, 2008, 11:54:17 pm »
Tell you what, I'm not questioning anybody here, but reading this suddenly reminded me/made me think that Earl and Rich probably didn't fit any common stereotype either. Remember, they ran a ranch, and Ennis describes them as "tough old birds," yet they were still "the joke of town." And look what happened to Earl. ...

Ennis was a little boy when this happened. There isn't anything in Proulx story that talks about Rich and Earl other than what Ennis described. What is important is that Ennis thought Earl was killed only because he was living with Rich. Again, it's about what Ennis thought.

Brad

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2008, 10:04:34 am »
Ennis was a little boy when this happened. There isn't anything in Proulx story that talks about Rich and Earl other than what Ennis described. What is important is that Ennis thought Earl was killed only because he was living with Rich. Again, it's about what Ennis thought.

Brad

Sure enough, what Ennis thinks about it is important. But the implication from the story is pretty clear that Ennis had the right idea. He didn't imagine his father laughing about what happened to Earl. No, Annie doesn't tell us anything more about Earl and Rich, but I still find it hard to believe they fit any sort of gay stereotype.

From the story:

Quote
"Whoa, whoa, whoa. It ain't goin a be that way. We can't. I'm stuck with what I got,
caught in my own loop. Can't get out of it. Jack, I don't want a be like them guys you
see around sometimes. And I don't want a be dead. There was these two old guys
ranched together down home, Earl and Rich -- Dad would pass a remark when he
seen them. They was a joke even though they was pretty tough old birds. I was what,
nine years old and they found Earl dead in a irrigation ditch. They'd took a tire iron to
him, spurred him up, drug him around by his dick until it pulled off, just bloody pulp.
What the tire iron done looked like pieces a burned tomatoes all over him, nose tore
down from skiddin on gravel."

"You seen that?"

"Dad made sure I seen it. Took me to see it. Me and K.E. Dad laughed about it. Hell,
for all I know he done the job. If he was alive and was to put his head in that door
right now you bet he'd go get his tire iron. Two guys livin together? No. All I can see is
we get together once in a while way the hell out in the back a nowhere -- "
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2008, 01:40:31 pm »
JudgeHolden, you say: [ there's far more folks with guns in their truck than without and no that dont mean we're all in training to be the Dalton Gang, its just a way of life that goes way back.  So Jack would not of been an obvious target of gaybashers.

Gaybashing is rarely a crime of conspiracy, as any cop will tell you, its almost always a case of opportunity and group intoxication. Its like the old fire triangle, fuel, heat and oxygen, you need bigotry, booze, and opportunity.  Look at the notorious Matt Shepherd case:  he was little, by himself, and way too trusting of these tweakers he met in a bar.  That case is held up as the standard of what gay youth face, the statistics show that though gay youth are more likely to be victims of hate crimes than straight ones, the odds are still overwhelming that if they are going to meet an early end, it'll be the same way most staright kids do: in an auto-related accident.

/i]

...

JudgeHolden, may I reply to you and to all too!

1- My gay friend in the Grand Tetons which is in Brokenback area (as in the BM story and Annie's), had guns, since he helped men hunt - he a guide-, but he was murdered !! So even if you have a rifle in your truck, as you said, gay men do get murdered because they are gay, I say !! I think that Jack got murdered, really, because he was a gay or bi man!! Even if he had maybe a rifle or many or guns, how can a gay man not be murdered by a group of anti-gay?? That is  similar to my own life, and surely of others who are now deceased or luckily survived such atrocities!!

2- As far as gay bashing is rare, that is bull. Since cops did not even asked details how dressed, the facial features, etc., about my four attackers who beat me up and left me for dead!! Most cops do not care if a gay man got murdered... and I have not only my own life, experience, to show about that. That leads me again to think that Jack was indeed murdered by gay bashers!!

So, I do not understand you ineedcrayons!! Any more comments from you and from others??
...
Awaiting your news,

hugs to all!!   
May all gay men be safe on Earth!!

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2008, 02:27:58 pm »
Quote from: Artiste
Most cops do not care if a gay man got murdered...

I understand what you're saying, Artiste.  I think BradInBlue's point is that the townspeople and cops didn't necessarily know Jack was gay.

The film and book give no information on how Jack's death was handled by the local law enforcement.  *If* Jack had been murdered, there may have been a full, thorough and serious investigation by the police.  We just don't know.

pnwDUDE

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2008, 02:31:45 pm »
Most cops do not care if a gay man got murdered...

Sorry Artiste, this is simply bull crap. Cops see so much of what is ill society and it's problems. What drugs do to people. How lots of adults behave like children--fight, domestic violence, road rage. Gangs--Bloods Crips 18th Streeters, shooting at each other. Tweakers racing down the street at 90 miles an hour in a stolen Toyota, stealing everything in sight and ruining so many lives. Black, white, Asian, hispanic, native American, young, old, hetro, homo, tranny...... It's not about what or who someone is, it is about what they did and their behavior.
Cops don't have time to dwell on someones sexual orientation or race for that matter. In fact, after 20 years in the field, I have come to the conclusion--as a homosexual (and there are many cops that are) that a majority of cops are more tolerant and accepting than most average joe's out there. Hey, try to find a homo cop or an Afican American cop, for that matter, that will tell you we are a bunch of racists and homophobes. For us, it's nice to see people, regardless of what they are, live good and happy lives. People that are respectful of others and solve problems/conflicts in a civil and adult manner.

Brad