TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[Dagi]

I think it was murder. But even if it wasn't, that doesn't mean that he could not have been murdered the very next day. The threat was real, still is real.

 And I think what haunted Ennis was not only the fact that he didn't know which way his lover died, but that either way his refusal to live with Jack did not save his life, was therefor in vain. Had he lived with Jack, they would have been somewhere else the moment the rim exploded (in case you assume it was an accident), but maybe they would both have gotten gay-bashed earlier.......or later.....or never. The tragedy is, you can alway ask "what if", equally concerning the future or the past, and you never know for sure, but Ennis made the "what if" the basis for his decision not to live with Jack.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not a very courageous person myself, and I guess I would have been equally frightened as Ennis, I don't blame him at all. Afterwards you always know better what you should have done.

Many think Annie Proulx doesn't want us to know which way Jack died. IMHO the way she told us speaks volumes: There is an "official" version for both the persons in the story and the reader, but the reader is supposed to read between the lines, unmask the accident-story as a lie, made up in order to protect the murderers from consequences, and see the truth behind it.

I hope what I wrote makes any sense, I'm not very concentrated today, sorry.

Dagi

[brokeplex]

Violence against gay men by homophobes is real and it still exists in today's world. A good friend of mine who I went to college with was beaten to death in the parking lot of an X Rated book store with baseball bats in Houston back 1982. Who were the perps?  A gang of affluent suburban teenage boys who thought it would be cool to harass some fags. Have things changed since? Some, but there is still an undercurrent of homophobic violence against gays. Circumstances can bring this hate to the surface in unexpected ways. Perhaps the Shepperd case is an example. I watched "The Laramie Project" for the first time the other night with D.L., his choice of movie by the way. I was deeply moved at how that murder lead to changes in awareness in the Laramie community. 

I don't for one minute think homophobia is as predominant in law enforcement as it used to be. Back when I was growing up and Frank Short was Houston police chief, they found two types of bodies floating in the bayous who were presumed to be killed by the police : illegals and gay men. Now, mostly everywhere, all of the time, cops are the good guys trying to protect the rest of us against the violent and the lawless.

Did Jack bring on his own murder? Of course not, the character Jack was a victim of the closet. He was compelled to look for the affection he couldn't get from Ennis in the only venues available to him. He ran into the wrong people and couldn't get away. So did my friend in Houston 25 years ago.

[serious crayons]

One thing I'd like to point out is that you can be fully aware of the real-world threat of anti-gay violence and yet fully believe Jack died by accident. Fictional plots generally aren't based on the likelihood that something or other would happen in real life (or, at least, not primarily on that), but on what best expresses the author's themes and imagination and the needs of the story. So whether it's more statistically likely that someone would die at the hands of a murderous homophobe versus a freak accident involving an exploding tire rim is pretty much irrelevant.

Note to those debating the prevalence of anti-gay hate crimes and homophobia on police forces: you might want to start a whole new thread. There are probably plenty of people at BetterMost who would like to comment on that -- some of whom may have personal experience with gay bashing, police work, etc., -- who will not see this discussion because they are not interested in reading 18 pages into a thread about Jack's death.

[Katie77]

Note to those debating the prevalence of anti-gay hate crimes and homophobia on police forces: you might want to start a whole new thread. There are probably plenty of people at BetterMost who would like to comment on that -- some of whom may have personal experience with gay bashing, police work, etc., -- who will not see this discussion because they are not interested in reading 18 pages into a thread about Jack's death.

Thats a good idea.....I am sick of the violence in our streets and maybe a discussion will help us understand why it is happening and what we might be able to do to stop it.....not only gay bashings, but violence in general.....none of us are really imune from it.....enough is enough...what can we do???

[Artiste]

Ineedcrayons, be assured that I am glad of your comment as suggestion! BUT will that work??

Katie77, when I mention gay-bashing and other such subjects, not many want to hear it! Neither on Bettermost!

So any suggestions from you both and from others?? You know that Jack being murdered or not, violence on BM, such killlings in our own yards and democratic countries is a great concern for me, not only for my betterment, as for all persons on Earth too!!

To me Jack was murdered... and not many seem to care about that!!

Awaiting your news from you and from all,

hugs!!

[Artiste]

I am waiting... with hugs too!!

Let us all be frank now. Continue to do so.

This thread is far from finished. Why be blind to not let it continue?

Hugs!!  Be safe all gay men in this World!!

[Katie77]

Katie77, when I mention gay-bashing and other such subjects, not many want to hear it! Neither on Bettermost!

To me Jack was murdered... and not many seem to care about that!!

Awaiting your news from you and from all,

hugs!!

I dont know what thread you are reading then Artiste, if you think the subject of gay bashing is being ignored, or that no one seems to care about the fact that Jack could have been murdered.......

There has been a lot of discussion (some a bit heated)....with opinions on the law enforcement procedures.....I am sure though, that everyone is of the same opinion about the epidemic of bashngs that is occurring throughout the world, none are tolerated whether they are gay bashings, wife bashings, child bashings or straight bashings.

These bashings are occurring, not because someone is gay, or straight,but because the perpetrators of these crimes are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, and that mixed with the group mentality, which often causes individuals to follow someone else's bad decisions, we are left with a cocktail of frenzied attacks on innocent people.

I sympathise with you gay guys who are afraid of being the victim of a gay bashing, but I assure you, straight guys or women are just as afraid, and with good reason....as a mother of two straight sons, I worry like hell when they go into the city, it is something that affects us all.

 I am not comparing gay bashing to straight bashing, or making out either one is less tragic or sinister than the other, it is all bad, all non-acceptable.....

[Artiste]

Thanks Katie!

Of course bashing is bad. No females, no children, no males should be murdered in my book, but it does happen, and too much, and more and more it seems. These are facts!!

Murderings of gay men because they are gay... are facts!! So, that is a reality, since gay-bashing by straights or others happen. Some straight(s) will kill, by that I mean murder, gay men, because they do NOT want anyone else on earth besides straight men!!

One example is I, since 4 beat me up and left me for dead! I have broken bones... hard to sleep, etc., and why? These killers yelled we will kill you and burn you in your house; is that nice of them straights or others to do that?

Another example is a friend in Vancouver, whom I visited and I found out daily that he kept complaining about his new face, which is not the same at all since he was gay-bashed and left for dead too!! You would not want a gay person to defaced your sons, neither would I, be assured, and I figure that they have less chances of getting not beaten because they are straights? Surely so, I figure, unless you prove to me otherwise. Thanks, in advance.

If we do not talk really frank with real stories, then murderers of Ennis and Jacks will continue and florish!! Did Jack murder a straight, a gay, a bi- or other, because of their sexual identity or preference, I doubt it! Right! But he got surely murdered for being gay... I say!

Awaiting your news,

hugs!! (May gay men be safe in this World!!)

[brokeplex]

One thing I'd like to point out is that you can be fully aware of the real-world threat of anti-gay violence and yet fully believe Jack died by accident. Fictional plots generally aren't based on the likelihood that something or other would happen in real life (or, at least, not primarily on that), but on what best expresses the author's themes and imagination and the needs of the story.

I agree with what you have just said. This particular fictional plot lends itself to ambiguity, especially in the scene where Ennis learns the news of Jack's death. My statement above was not meant to be taken that I believed that one MUST believe that Jack was murdered or one is insensitive to gay bashings. Far from it.

What I have stated is simply my own personal take on both the short story and the film.

[Artiste]

How many gay bashing in this movie??

Anyone dare to count??

Will that prove Jack was murdered??

Hugs!!