TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, I think a person can be really, truly genuininely happy in a state of platonic love.  I think platonic love can be blissful.  And, I do think Ennis loves Alma... in his own way.

Tell you what, when you consider what we know of Ennis's father, and that he was young when both his parents died, I'm not exactly sure Ennis really knows what it's like to some someone--until he finds the shirts. 

I still think Ennis is having fun sledding.... but I don't know how this reflects the degree of his sexual attraction to Alma.

What it shows, I think is that he is in love with her--and he's not "faking it," just as Jack isn't faking it in the back seat with Lureen.

Based on the actual sexual moments we witness between them, he seems pretty unhappy... has to visualize Jack (that's how I interpret the cut to the bull-riding during Ennis's early sex scene with Alma)... and of course, it's pretty awful for Alma herself.

I think that cut is just a very subtle visual joke--from Ennis "riding" Alma to Jack riding a bull--that doesn't say anything about what's going on in Ennis's mind when he does what he prefers with Alma. Of course, anyone is free to imagine that it does say something about Ennis's state of mind. ... 

But I guess we've wandered pretty far afield from questons of Lureen's pregancy, haven't we? 

[Brown Eyes]

What it shows, I think is that he is in love with her--and he's not "faking it," just as Jack isn't faking it in the back seat with Lureen.

I think that cut is just a very subtle visual joke--from Ennis "riding" Alma to Jack riding a bull--that doesn't say anything about what's going on in Ennis's mind when he does what he prefers with Alma. Of course, anyone is free to imagine that it does say something about Ennis's state of mind. ... 

But I guess we've wandered pretty far afield from questons of Lureen's pregancy, haven't we? 

Yeah, you're right that we've wandered a bit OT.  I think for some of these things, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I do think the cut to the bull-riding is meant to be a "joke" (a really sad/mean joke) or at least a pun... and I also think it's meant to represent what's going on in Ennis's mind.  I think it's meant to function as a montage that way.

But, again, it's fine to disagree about these things.  There are certainly multiple ways to read some of these issues in BBM.

[serious crayons]

But, again, it's fine to disagree about these things.  There are certainly multiple ways to read some of these issues in BBM.

Sure enough. If we haven't convinced each other by now, we probably never will. 

Still, it's fun to go back to these debates now and then.

[southendmd]

A couple of thoughts:

I don't believe Lureen was pregnant at all.  I believe post-mountain, post-Jimbo-rejection Jack is counting his blessings that a rich girl is showing him attention.  For him, Ennis is gone, flirting with cowboys or clowns is dangerous, and he is "starving", literally and figuratively.  The backseat is his ticket out of misery, so he goes for it, perhaps engaging in self-deception for survival.  But, Lureen is "on top". 

I believe we're meant to see that as Bobby's conception.  We all know there are lots of problems with the time-line, and I think this is one of them. 

My very first impression of the happy sledding scene was how much Alma in her fleecy cap looks like Jack.  Ennis even "wrestles" a bit with her, on a hill... sound familiar? 

The "Alma flip" into bull-riding scene I thought showed a naughty Ang, but also reminded me of the line in the story "...Jack, who had been riding more than bulls..."

Not sure if Ennis's relations with Alma represent self-deception.  Again, I think of the story:  "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this."

[Jeff Wrangler]

Flirting with ...  clowns is dangerous.

Flirting with clowns is never wise. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of them out there.

 

Sorry. ... Couldn't resist. ...

[serious crayons]

Not sure if Ennis's relations with Alma represent self-deception.  Again, I think of the story:  "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this."

I've always thought Story Ennis was engaging in a little self-deception (or at least Jack-deception) when he said this.

Or maybe Story Ennis likes doin it with women the way Jeff thinks Jack liked doin it with Lureen in the back seat. Whatever gets your gun off ...

 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Not sure if Ennis's relations with Alma represent self-deception.  Again, I think of the story:  "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this."

I've always thought Story Ennis was engaging in a little self-deception (or at least Jack-deception) when he said this.

Or maybe Story Ennis likes doin it with women the way Jeff thinks Jack liked doin it with Lureen in the back seat. Whatever gets your gun off ...

Or maybe Ennis isn't deceiving himself and just means that he finds poking Jack's backside more physically pleasurable than poking a woman.

Sorry if that's vulgar. ... 

[Brown Eyes]

I believe we're meant to see that as Bobby's conception.  We all know there are lots of problems with the time-line, and I think this is one of them. 

I absolutely agree with this.  It seems to me that we're supposed to think the car scene is/could-be Bobby's conception.  And, I also think that the whole confusion over the pregnancy timeline really is just a goof.... one of many in the timeline within the film.

[serious crayons]

Or maybe Ennis isn't deceiving himself and just means that he finds poking Jack's backside more physically pleasurable than poking a woman.

I'm no expert, but given male and female physiological similarities I would guess the difference in pleasure between those particular options might be less physical than mental.

As far as whether he's deceiving himself, I guess it's another one of those things we can't solve. I think he's saying that he likes doin it with women just because he believes he's expected to like doin it with women.

[moremojo]

As far as whether he's deceiving himself, I guess it's another one of those things we can't solve. I think he's saying that he likes doin it with women just because he believes he's expected to like doin it with women.

And did Ennis ever truly have sex with a woman other than Alma by the time he made this statement? In the film, he tells Jack that he has never had the opportunity before their fateful tryst. In the short story, when said tryst commences, we read that there was no instruction manual but none was needed as Ennis penetrated Jack--suggesting that this may well be Ennis's very first sexual experience.

So by the time of the motel conversation, Ennis's carnal knowledge of women may very well have been limited to Alma, yet he refers to "women", perhaps to emphasize his alleged "masculinity" in his male friend's eyes.