what do you believe?

[forsythia12]

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I was criticizing your post - let me spell it right - forsythia  I was not, I was speaking about proselytizing in general.

People may have good intentions, but you know the saying, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  Almost all proselytizing is unsolicited, so people shouldn't be going on missionary work at all because in doing so they are being presumptive that - unasked - people want to hear about another religion's message.

My Mormon friend even admitted that he was sending people to a Mormon hell on his missions.  If people had never heard the message of the Mormons, then they wouldn't go to hell.  But if they had heard it and rejected it, then they were going to hell.  So basically, by going on a mission and educating people about Mormonism, he was sending more people to his religion's hell than otherwise would be if they remained ignorant. 

Yes, i hear what you're saying.  i used to do mission work.  i was a youth pastor for a non-donminational , christian based youth organization who reaced out to highschool kids.  i thoroughly enjoyed the work, and believed in what i was doing.  i never pushed anything, and i loved those kids for exactly who they were.  we just told them about the bible because it's hidden in our schools.  i just think in order to make an informed decision, you need to know what it is your (not you personally) rejecting.  these kids knew nothing about any religion, and that is one we could teach, outside of school.  had nothing to do with taking them to church, or advising them away from other religions.  for me, once i became a christian, it was important for me to take courses in religious studies in college/university so i could fully understand what it is i do, and do not believe.  i wanted to learn all about buddhism, judeaism, catholicism, islam, and hinduism.  there are many more i will learn about too in my own personal study at home.  i do this because i dislike ignorance.  i don't want anyone to be sheltered from any information whatsoever. i want people to know about stuff, and i always want to know more.  that's when i think informed decisions are made...and that's why i believe my mission had good intentions, and did no harm. .....or at least none that i know of.  i believe in education, and i'm sad that due to political correctedness we don't teach kids this stuff anymore.  80% of the teens we had have never heard of the christmas story before, and i think that's a shame.  i don't believe in chanting christian prayers in the beginning of each class, or praying to a christian god in school because that would discriminate, but i do think schools need to teach, at least a little bit, the wide variety of faiths we have.  i think if they knew what others believed, they would understand eachother more....so, that was part of our mission.

[delalluvia]

Yes, i hear what you're saying.  i used to do mission work.  i was a youth pastor for a non-donminational , christian based youth organization who reaced out to highschool kids.  i thoroughly enjoyed the work, and believed in what i was doing.  i never pushed anything, and i loved those kids for exactly who they were.  we just told them about the bible because it's hidden in our schools.  i just think in order to make an informed decision, you need to know what it is your (not you personally) rejecting.  these kids knew nothing about any religion, and that is one we could teach, outside of school.  had nothing to do with taking them to church, or advising them away from other religions.  for me, once i became a christian, it was important for me to take courses in religious studies in college/university so i could fully understand what it is i do, and do not believe.  i wanted to learn all about buddhism, judeaism, catholicism, islam, and hinduism.  there are many more i will learn about too in my own personal study at home.  i do this because i dislike ignorance.  i don't want anyone to be sheltered from any information whatsoever. i want people to know about stuff, and i always want to know more.  that's when i think informed decisions are made...and that's why i believe my mission had good intentions, and did no harm. .....or at least none that i know of.  i believe in education, and i'm sad that due to political correctedness we don't teach kids this stuff anymore.  80% of the teens we had have never heard of the christmas story before, and i think that's a shame.  i don't believe in chanting christian prayers in the beginning of each class, or praying to a christian god in school because that would discriminate, but i do think schools need to teach, at least a little bit, the wide variety of faiths we have.  i think if they knew what others believed, they would understand eachother more....so, that was part of our mission.

Unfortunately, not all missions are like yours.  My Mormon friend went on a mission to a staunchly Catholic country with the intent (good or not) of basically subverting people's belief in their current religion so they would accept his.  He actually taught that there was a "right path" and that was the Mormon path.

So his mission wasn't about 'educating people' about all kinds of religions, only about the "right" religion - his religion.  And of course, the people of the country he went to were not ignorant of religion, having been steeped in Catholicism their whole lives.

Personally, I believe for a person to make an informed decision, they have to be adults, fully capable of analytical thinking.  This excludes children and most young teenagers, so I believe children should be exposed to all types of religions or withheld from information about religion until they're old enough to understand them.  After all, I certainly wouldn't want a child reading the bible.  It has such stories of rape, violence, cruelty and incest that would make anybody's toes curl and just letting them read the 'good parts' does them a disservice, IMO.

[forsythia12]

Unfortunately, not all missions are like yours.  My Mormon friend went on a mission to a staunchly Catholic country with the intent (good or not) of basically subverting people's belief in their current religion so they would accept his.  He actually taught that there was a "right path" and that was the Mormon path.

So his mission wasn't about 'educating people' about all kinds of religions, only about the "right" religion - his religion.  And of course, the people of the country he went to were not ignorant of religion, having been steeped in Catholicism their whole lives.

Personally, I believe for a person to make an informed decision, they have to be adults, fully capable of analytical thinking.  This excludes children and most young teenagers, so I believe children should be exposed to all types of religions or withheld from information about religion until they're old enough to understand them.  After all, I certainly wouldn't want a child reading the bible.  It has such stories of rape, violence, cruelty and incest that would make anybody's toes curl and just letting them read the 'good parts' does them a disservice, IMO.

well, our organization was christian, so it was definately bias, as we did not 'teach' other religions.  that's up to other religions to become more involved.  we did tell them what WE believed, and then it was up to them to thiink about it, or seek other stuff.  we just wanted to get the 'ball rolling' so to speak, in their thought process.
i have two little ones and they go to church, and we read them their children's bibles, which doesn't exclude bad stories, but explains them in age appropriate manners. 
one of our goals was to inform teens about a different way of life compared to what they've been exposed to in secular groups.  they were personal messages that we sent, and we were there to be their friend , no matter what they believed, and we were there as 'mentors', i guess, or there to answer any questions they had.  they knew we were christian, and they knew what we were about, so they had the desire to know more to begin with.  i just wanted to learn about other religions for my own education, and i love to learn, so that was personal.  we didn't do the teaching, but we encouraged kids to ask questions.  these teens were anywhere from 15-18, and they were adult enough to think abstractly, or at least the ones i knew anyway.  we had fun with them, we loved them, we were their friends, we were just 'there' for them, and our motive was out of love for god, and a love for people....not for numbers or quotas. 
i understand what you say, and a lot of mission work i see out there is shamefull, but i do see a lot of good being done too.  for example, the bible teaches to give to the poor, or to give your neighboor the shirt off your back....so when i see habitat for humanity, or 'loaves and fishes' doing work in el salvadore, or mexico, buildiing houses for people, etc....and they're asked why they do it, and they reply "because i love god, and i love his people"...that to me is a positive mission.  that's putting one's faith into action, and faith without deeds is dead...

i appreciate your posts, and i enjoy discussing this with you.  i respect where you're coming from
i didn't take any offence to the "n" in my name...just making a correction.

[delalluvia]

well, our organization was christian, so it was definately bias, as we did not 'teach' other religions.  that's up to other religions to become more involved.  we did tell them what WE believed, and then it was up to them to thiink about it, or seek other stuff.  we just wanted to get the 'ball rolling' so to speak, in their thought process.
i have two little ones and they go to church, and we read them their children's bibles, which doesn't exclude bad stories, but explains them in age appropriate manners. 
one of our goals was to inform teens about a different way of life compared to what they've been exposed to in secular groups.  they were personal messages that we sent, and we were there to be their friend , no matter what they believed, and we were there as 'mentors', i guess, or there to answer any questions they had.  they knew we were christian, and they knew what we were about, so they had the desire to know more to begin with.  i just wanted to learn about other religions for my own education, and i love to learn, so that was personal.  we didn't do the teaching, but we encouraged kids to ask questions.  these teens were anywhere from 15-18, and they were adult enough to think abstractly, or at least the ones i knew anyway.  we had fun with them, we loved them, we were their friends, we were just 'there' for them, and our motive was out of love for god, and a love for people....not for numbers or quotas. 
i understand what you say, and a lot of mission work i see out there is shamefull, but i do see a lot of good being done too.  for example, the bible teaches to give to the poor, or to give your neighboor the shirt off your back....so when i see habitat for humanity, or 'loaves and fishes' doing work in el salvadore, or mexico, buildiing houses for people, etc....and they're asked why they do it, and they reply "because i love god, and i love his people"...that to me is a positive mission.  that's putting one's faith into action, and faith without deeds is dead...

i appreciate your posts, and i enjoy discussing this with you.  i respect where you're coming from
i didn't take any offence to the "n" in my name...just making a correction.

Your mission sounds nice, forsythia, much nicer than his, even if you could try hard and not find a nicer person than my Mormon friend.  But however nice he was still butting in where he wasn't invited.  And again, not anything personal, but I do feel it does a grave disservice and misrepresents a religion if someone only reads to children or teens 'age appropriate' matter from the Bible.  You end up with an adult like a friend of mine who told me she named her dog Jericho because that was her 'favorite story' from the Bible.

I looked at her aghast, and asked, "Your favorite story?  Do you know what happened to the people of Jericho after the walls came tumbling down?"

She didn't.  She went home, read it, came back the next day and said, "OK, I just like the name."

Even the Christmas Story is 'edited' so to speak.  People traditionally end the telling of the tale in Luke with the baby being born in the manager.  No body keeps reading after that.  Where Mary isn't allowed to take her new born baby into god's presence at the Temple for weeks because she is 'unclean', having just given birth and not worthy to be in god's presence because women are basically not as good as men.

IMO, people tend to leave stuff like that out from telling children/teens because it would cause awkward questions they don't want to answer and it might turn them away from Christianity.  Yet, this is their religion, too.  So in teaching this way, they give children/teens the sanitized, PC correct version, then these children are strongly influenced by their religion, and grow up basically knowing very little about it except the 'good parts'.  IMO, that's extremely misleading.

You end up with people like my friend, or cafeteria Christians/bible thumpers picking and choosing the parts they like and ignoring the rest, fundamentalists crowing against homosexuals, not having read the parts where everyone is admonished against eating shellfish or pork or wearing two different materials of clothing or in the Christian bible part, Jesus being against divorce and Paul being against people getting married and actually having sex.

This is why I believe that children need to be kept from any religious studies until they're old enough to understand  and teens until they're capable of analytical thinking so they can make an 'informed' decision. 

To teach only sanitized versions earlier, when children can't hear the rest of the stories due to their 'R' rating is wrong.  Religious leaders certainly knew what they were doing when they said to teach a child when they are young and they won't stray afterwards.  That's called indoctrination.

[injest]

Your mission sounds nice, forsythia, much nicer than his, even if you could try hard and not find a nicer person than my Mormon friend.  But however nice he was still butting in where he wasn't invited.  And again, not anything personal, but I do feel it does a grave disservice and misrepresents a religion if someone only reads to children or teens 'age appropriate' matter from the Bible.  You end up with an adult like a friend of mine who told me she named her dog Jericho because that was her 'favorite story' from the Bible.

I looked at her aghast, and asked, "Your favorite story?  Do you know what happened to the people of Jericho after the walls came tumbling down?"

She didn't.  She went home, read it, came back the next day and said, "OK, I just like the name."

Even the Christmas Story is 'edited' so to speak.  People traditionally end the telling of the tale in Luke with the baby being born in the manager.  No body keeps reading after that.  Where Mary isn't allowed to take her new born baby into god's presence at the Temple for weeks because she is 'unclean', having just given birth and not worthy to be in god's presence because women are basically not as good as men.

IMO, people tend to leave stuff like that out from telling children/teens because it would cause awkward questions they don't want to answer and it might turn them away from Christianity.  Yet, this is their religion, too.  So in teaching this way, they give children/teens the sanitized, PC correct version, then these children are strongly influenced by their religion, and grow up basically knowing very little about it except the 'good parts'.  IMO, that's extremely misleading.

You end up with people like my friend, or cafeteria Christians/bible thumpers picking and choosing the parts they like and ignoring the rest, fundamentalists crowing against homosexuals, not having read the parts where everyone is admonished against eating shellfish or pork or wearing two different materials of clothing or in the Christian bible part, Jesus being against divorce and Paul being against people getting married and actually having sex.

This is why I believe that children need to be kept from any religious studies until they're old enough to understand  and teens until they're capable of analytical thinking so they can make an 'informed' decision. 

To teach only sanitized versions earlier, when children can't hear the rest of the stories due to their 'R' rating is wrong.  Religious leaders certainly knew what they were doing when they said to teach a child when they are young and they won't stray afterwards.  That's called indoctrination.

or to teach sanitized versions period. Everyone knows how God supposedly destroyed Sodom and Gommorrah because of homosexuality...but how many preachers talk about the next few chapters?? the ones where Lot humped both his daughters with no penalty??

[optom3]

I wouldn't call you an athiest in this situations...I would call you an agnostic....that is: you believe in something, just none of the established religions...

I was raised fundementalist Pentecostal. Pretty much turned me OFF religion....I do believe there is more to the world than what we see. I just don't believe that you have to be a member of a certain church or believe a specific dogma.

I was raised really strict Catholic,turned me right off.Both me and brother went to catholic schools and without doubt some of the cruelest people I have met were the nuns at my school and the brothers at his school.As for church,it was so hypocritical,1.5 hours of in those days latin mass,followed bt over to the pub.It bred in me terrible fears,I remmeber the nuns and priests saying you must never chew the host wafer it has to dissolve on your tongue.I was 15 before I dared chew it.Also used to have nightmares about hell and even worse purgatory,sort of no mans land.
It also seemed pretty handy that you could behave as you wanted all week go say I am really sorry on Saturday,do your penance then start again.I know the theory is you are meant to be really sorry,but I question how many were.
I watched women worn down by year after year of childbirth as no form of contraception is allowed.Not to mention they could not afford all the kids in the 1st place.

Have gone back to a few churches since,as recently as last week,but still remain skeptical.I huess I believe ib a sort of Karma in that what goes round comes round.I have seen many examples of this in my life.
To this day though I cannot shake off the deep rooted Catholic guilt.
So I guess I am an agnostic untill someone shows me or I find out for myself,otherwise.
As for my kids,I just try to teach them right from wrong,period.I struggle a bit when they ask me about death,and this is where I am hypocritical,because then I do bring in religion and tell them they will go to heaven.But am suitably vague about it.Just tell them that the essence of their spirit will live on in peoples hearts and minds .so gone but not forgotten.

[BlissC]

I am an Agnostic now, rather than an Athiest, only because some optimistic part of me wants to believe that the world is too complex to be completely sure of what is and what isn't.

I guess I used to describe myself as agnostic too - like you Susie, there was an optimist in me that wanted to believe there was maybe something more. With everything that's happened these past five years though I find it difficult to have faith in anything – my mum was diagnosed with breast cancer, my aunty died of osophoegeal cancer, my grandma died of bowel cancer, two close friends of mine have died, myself, I've been diagnosed with two serious medical conditions, which while neither are immediately life-threatening have been life changing for me and have meant I've lost a lot of independence, and then only a few months ago my step-grandma was diagnosed with lung cancer.

My mum, who despite everything had managed to retain her belief, said a couple of months ago that she remembered from when she was young her parish priest telling her “God only sends you what he knows what you can deal with”, and then added, well I've had enough now! I know what she means. Four times in the last five years I've had brain surgery, and after all that I've gone back to work and I'm trying to get on with my life. It isn't easy with the amount of medication it takes to get me through the day and having lost most of my peripheral vision, and having other problems due to my health problem and as a result of the surgery I've had. They say what doesn't kill you makes you stringer, and yeah, over the past couple of years in particular I've come to realise that I've got two choices – either give in and let life pass me by, or fight it and do whatever I can when I can because as far as I can see, life's a one shot thing, so I'm going to get on with living it. Sorry, this probably isn;t the most appropriate thread for it, but after all that's happened, when today my doctor tells me he wants me to have more scans and tests because he now suspects I may have got another neurological condition as well, I think I have the right to feel a little pissed with God if he's out there somewhere, and if he wants to convince me he is out there and there's some master plan to all this, he's gonna have to do a hell of a lot to convince me.

first off, i am a christian, but i struggle with my faith at times, and i'm not perfect in any way, shape or form.  i am only giving this view because it's appropriate for this thread, and it's what i've come to believe.  i used to hate god.  i was a complete athiest, but the angrier i got, the more i wanted to know how 'god' could allow such shitty things to happen, and that's what got me asking questions. i guess, deep down, i didn't want to 'write god off', but rather seek the idea out even more, and now, i feel like i have a lot more answers.......or at least, answers that work for me.

basically, from a christian stance, we are living in a sinful world, and we are sinful people...some worse than others, but sinners nonetheless.  due to this, the world is full of suffering, pain, and death, among other injustices, and this was never god's will.

I respect your view completely Forsythia – we're all entitled to our views, and I do appreciate that everyone's opinion is as valid as the next person's. My first problem with religion though is this whole idea of sin and sinners. Who gets to decide what's a sin and who are sinners? (more on that in a moment)  I'm asking not as a challenge (not sure if that's the right word), and I don't mean to cause offence, but because this genuinely interests me. Take a nine month old baby who's dying of leukaemia – is the baby a sinner? Is it a case of the sins of the parents being visited on the child? How does a child dying help the grand scheme of things? Where's the connection between sin and this suffering and pain?

The second thing I can't get past is the “rules and regulations” of the Bible etc. Take BBM for example. We're all here because of BBM, and we all accept Jack and Ennis's relationship. We accept that their relationship did hurt others – Alma and Lureen – and we accept that as people they had their faults, and made mistakes, but we accept their relationship – presumably because they love each other. According to the bible though homosexuality's a sin – yet we accept Jack and Ennis's relationship, and though we acknowledge the pain they caused others, we don't condemn them because of it.

the bible fills in the rest of the story, and god's plan to help heal the world of this so that manind recieve everything god first intended us to have.

And this is the final bit I have a problem with. The Bible wasn't written by God – it was written by a bunch of people who claimed that they knew God's will. Can you imagine what would happen today if some guy turned up claiming to be the son of god, and then a bunch of his followers got together and wrote a book about it? They'd be laughed off the airwaves! I'm sorry that sounds a bit flippant, but I'm just trying to put my skepticism about it all into words.

The Bible was written by a bunch of ordinary people, who for whatever reason knew/believed they knew what God's will was. It wasn't even all written at the same time, and it wasn't put together in the form we know as “the Bible” until some considerable time after it was written. Anything that was written was subject to their own human interpretations, as well as their own beliefs and hang-ups, along with views on what was and wasn't acceptable according to the cultural beliefs at the time.

I guess at the heart of it, I have a scientific background, and these days I'm a geek and into programming and code and stuff, and things either are or they're not. I've always tended to look for the logic in things, and I guess that's where the problem comes with me and religion, because there isn't any black and white in religion.

As I said, I don't mean to be confrontational, or to cause offence, but this interests me, I guess because it's not something black and white that I can relate to.   

[BlissC]

I can understand that. I guess it's like the laws of physics - energy can't be destroyed, only converted into a different type of energy.

It sounds like you are a very strong person, stronger than most.

Nah, just too stubborn to let all this shit and this damned body of mine get the better of me. If it wants a fight, it's got one! 

Slightly OT, but one of my favourite bands is Faithless. They're a dance band, but their lyrics cover all sorts of things from peace, poverty, and racism, and much much more. Maxi Jazz, their lead man's a Buddhist, and his beliefs come across in, and influence their lyrics a hell of a lot (my signature's a quote from their lyrics), and they really believe in what they sing about.

[forsythia12]

Your mission sounds nice, forsythia, much nicer than his, even if you could try hard and not find a nicer person than my Mormon friend.  But however nice he was still butting in where he wasn't invited.  And again, not anything personal, but I do feel it does a grave disservice and misrepresents a religion if someone only reads to children or teens 'age appropriate' matter from the Bible.  You end up with an adult like a friend of mine who told me she named her dog Jericho because that was her 'favorite story' from the Bible.

I looked at her aghast, and asked, "Your favorite story?  Do you know what happened to the people of Jericho after the walls came tumbling down?"

She didn't.  She went home, read it, came back the next day and said, "OK, I just like the name."

Even the Christmas Story is 'edited' so to speak.  People traditionally end the telling of the tale in Luke with the baby being born in the manager.  No body keeps reading after that.  Where Mary isn't allowed to take her new born baby into god's presence at the Temple for weeks because she is 'unclean', having just given birth and not worthy to be in god's presence because women are basically not as good as men.

IMO, people tend to leave stuff like that out from telling children/teens because it would cause awkward questions they don't want to answer and it might turn them away from Christianity.  Yet, this is their religion, too.  So in teaching this way, they give children/teens the sanitized, PC correct version, then these children are strongly influenced by their religion, and grow up basically knowing very little about it except the 'good parts'.  IMO, that's extremely misleading.

You end up with people like my friend, or cafeteria Christians/bible thumpers picking and choosing the parts they like and ignoring the rest, fundamentalists crowing against homosexuals, not having read the parts where everyone is admonished against eating shellfish or pork or wearing two different materials of clothing or in the Christian bible part, Jesus being against divorce and Paul being against people getting married and actually having sex.

This is why I believe that children need to be kept from any religious studies until they're old enough to understand  and teens until they're capable of analytical thinking so they can make an 'informed' decision. 

To teach only sanitized versions earlier, when children can't hear the rest of the stories due to their 'R' rating is wrong.  Religious leaders certainly knew what they were doing when they said to teach a child when they are young and they won't stray afterwards.  That's called indoctrination.

we are talking about wo different things here.  you're saying 'sanitizing' and i'm not.....
if someone is going to teach someone else about a topic, that person needs to start at the beginnning.  the basics need to be taught first.  you don't start teaching math by teaching algebra.  you do it from the level of understanding that they already have,  based on experience, age, and maturity.  this has nothing to do with sanitizing.  i don't leave stuff out, i teach at the level of the individual, and in an appropriate way for their cognitive ability.  big difference.

as far as the jericho thing.....yes.    many people are misinformed, and that's one of the reasons i love to teach those who wish to know about the bible. we obviosly have the same concern that those who wish to know about things,  should be thoroughly informed.

[forsythia12]

as i read some of these posts, all i can say is that for me, i believe i have a personal relationship with jesus christ, he is my savior, and i know with my heart , mind, and soul that there is a god.  i beleive the bible to be true, and i base the way i live according to it's precepts.
that is my personal opinion.
i don't want to engage in biblical debates.  this won't do any good, because it comes down to whether you believe the bible to be true or not, or from god or not.  if not, that is completely fine, but discussing verses is pointless.  i have no problem explaining what i believe, or talking about my personal journey, but i really don't want this to become a scripture analysis thread. a lot of times when this is done, verses are taken out of context, misused, and misunderstood, so it's a heavy topic.  there has been some posts that i'd like to address where scripture was quoted; however, i don't think bantering back and forth is a good idea for this thread, as others may not join in thinking this is a christian based bible study.  i don't want people to be offended by anything.
i read everyone's posts, and i want to thank everyone for writing in.  your views are very interesting, and they are welcomed here.  i'd like everyone to keep posting, and discussing , as i will be doing the same, and if anyone would like to discuss specific verses, ideas, or anything else directly related to the bible, send me a PM, and i'd be happy to have that discussion.