sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.

[forsythia12]

okay......this might be a very dumb question, but i was always wondering about the 'unspoken commitment' between jack and ennis regarding who it was, and who it wasn't, okay to sleep with.  here's the part that confuses me:
-jack asked ennis "after all this time, you still haven't found someone to marry?"
-ennis admits he's been 'putting the blocks to a waitress'
-jack says he's got something going on with a foreman's wife'

why is it that sleeping with a woman is okay?  i mean, sleeping with another man must be considered 'cheating' or not coshre because jack lies about the foreman's wife, and we certainly see ennis's reaction about mexico......so why is sleeping with men taboo, and women is fine....no questions asked?

when jack said "you and alma....that's a life?"  did he mean that because they're gay, no woman could possibly replace jack? 
i'm trying to understand that jack and ennis had some sort of understanding that other men were off limits, but was there no jealousy about sex with women?  if ennis got married again, would'nt jack be the least bit jealous?  what about ennis being jealous over this 'foreman's wife'?
to me, sex with anyone else, despite orientation, would be hard to deal with, and would create jealousy, so i'm confused by this. 

my husband would freak if i slept with a girl (fantasy excluded. lol) and he'd consider it cheating, even though girls are not my sexual preference..

any thoughts?

[Katie77]

You are right......seems neither one of them is jealous of them being with a woman, but definately would be if they knew about them being with a man.

I think jealousy, or the feeling of being cheated on, is when the person who is  cheating , is  replacing or substituting  what they and their partner share. Its like the cheater is getting something from someone else, that their partner can provide them with. Its the feeling of betrayal, of being lied to, of having been deceived that hurts the most.

There are mixed feelings in the movie......on the one hand, I can understand Ennis not being jealous of the Jack having a "thing" with the ranchers wife,but if Jack had told him the "thing" was really with the rancher, there is no doubt, Ennis would have felt hurt and betrayed and may have even got so angry that he would have completely broken off the realtionship with Jack.

On the other hand,  I can understand Alma being jealous of Jack....and if Ennis thought Alma was cheating with Munro he too would have been absolutely ropable.

From what I have learned from friends and aquaintances who have either cheated or been cheated on, its the emotional betrayal that hurts the most, more so than the actual sex act.....

There is the other aspect too, that if the partner does not find out or discover the infedilty then no one gets hurt...a case of "what one does not know, wont hurt them".

Also that some relationships are based on love and committment, where others are more lust than love, "just sex, it didnt mean anything"....


Maybe that is how Ennis and Jack looked at their relationship....based on love, companionship, and in their own way, they were committed to one another. In their mind, for one or the other to have sex with a woman, it would be only be for the lust or sexual gratification, not an emotional experience.

Infedility is very hypocritical, can be justified or condemned, depending on whichever way you are looking at it, and whoever is looking at it. Like in the movie, we seem to accept Jack and Ennis relationship, with a certain amount of disregard that they are actually cheating on Alma and Laureen.

I guess the conversation can go round and round in circles, there doesnt seem to be a right or a wrong answer...Ive rambled on here, and yet still dont have a reasonable explanation as to why they react diferently to each other being with a woman. They just do, I can understand it, but I cant expalin it

[Jeff Wrangler]

why is it that sleeping with a woman is okay?  i mean, sleeping with another man must be considered 'cheating' or not coshre because jack lies about the foreman's wife, and we certainly see ennis's reaction about mexico......so why is sleeping with men taboo, and women is fine....no questions asked?

I've always felt that for them--or, really, for Ennis--having sex with other men violated the "one-shot thing" idea between the two of them. Having sex with women but not with any other men allows Ennis to preserve his self-delusion that they aren't really homosexual. I believe this is one factor in his anger with Jack in the confrontation at the lake. It's not just that Jack has been cheating on him, it's that being forced to confront the fact that Jack has been having sex with other men forces Ennis to face up to the true nature of Jack's sexual orientation--and of his own sexual orientation, too.

[Front-Ranger]

And there's also the fact that neither Jack nor Ennis thought much of their spouses, they were there mostly for convenience sake. Ennis thought of Alma much the way he considered any other piece a livestock. Jack "ain't never gave it much thought," he was happy with "doing it over the phone." Can you blame them? Both Alma and Lureen roped in their mates and used Jack and Ennis in their own ways too.

[Brown Eyes]

I think dating women/marrying women were considered acceptable by Ennis (and Jack too) because those things were part of his "cover".  In a way, they were essential to Ennis's determination to remain in the closet.

If Ennis had "said the word" that he was ready to move in with Jack... I think Jack would have stopped seeing women/ divorced Lureen immediately.  We know he was willing to leave Lureen at the time of the reunion.  And, he drives to Wyoming at the drop of a hat following Ennis's divorce.  Sometimes I think it's lucky for Ennis that Jack didn't arrive after Ennis's divorce and announce that he'd just gotten divorced too (based on this signal that Jack perceives from Ennis).

In terms of the relationship between Ennis and Jack being the primary relationship, it seems important to establish that Ennis was with Jack first (sexually).  Yes, he was engaged to Alma, but seemingly their romance hadn't progressed very far based on the "opportunity" conversation.  This is Jack's enduring claim on Ennis I think.  And, makes it ultimately seem like Ennis, in a way, is cheating on Jack by deciding to go through with the marriage with Alma.

[injest]

And there's also the fact that neither Jack nor Ennis thought much of their spouses, they were there mostly for convenience sake. Ennis thought of Alma much the way he considered any other piece a livestock. Jack "ain't never gave it much thought," he was happy with "doing it over the phone." Can you blame them? Both Alma and Lureen roped in their mates and used Jack and Ennis in their own ways too.

how did Alma and Lureen 'use' them in their own way? I mean in the short story and the movie, not the conjecture of the Open Forum threads. It was a bad situation but I don't blame the women. Jack and Ennis were the ones that went outside their marriages. Neither woman did anything that can even remotely be considered underhanded.

[Front-Ranger]

I don't "blame" the women and I don't think they did anything "underhanded" but I do think they used the men and the relationship. Alma expected Ennis to bring home enough money for the whole family to live on. She said (and at a very vulnerable time) "I'd have em (children) if you'd support em."

Lureen actively pursued Jack and singled him out as her mate, and then seduced him in the back seat of her car. He neither wanted to marry nor have children.

[injest]

I don't "blame" the women and I don't think they did anything "underhanded" but I do think they used the men and the relationship. Alma expected Ennis to bring home enough money for the whole family to live on. She said (and at a very vulnerable time) "I'd have em (children) if you'd support em."

Lureen actively pursued Jack and singled him out as her mate, and then seduced him in the back seat of her car. He neither wanted to marry nor have children.

you say you dont' blame them then you portray their actions in a bad light. Ennis was screwing another man and quitting jobs constantly to be with that man, that affected their family, Alma MORE than had reason to ask Ennis to wear protection.

and when did it become 'using' someone to like them and seduce them? as far as she knew Jack was available. Jack could have said no. He was a big boy. I dont' see him as being that weak, he made a CHOICE to get married and have kids.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, if you look at marriage in the most cynical way possible, as an institution without actually looking at the emotional components of marriage... it is a contract (a patriarchal contract) in which both parties use each other for various reasons.  It was set up originally to be about exchanging and securing property... and to produce male heirs for the patriarchal line.

So, there's a way in which Alma and Lureen certainly used Ennis and Jack (and vice versa) based on the conventional expectations that surround marriage.  Alma expected Ennis to provide money for her and the children (there's nothing natural about that assumption... it's a conventionally based assumption about what a husband "should" do within the contract of a conventional marriage).

Yes, Jack did make a choice to marry Lureen... but it seems to be more about resignation than enthusiasm on his part.  And, in a cynical way, it also seems to be about his interest in financial security via the Newsomes.

[injest]

Well, if you look at marriage in the most cynical way possible, as an institution without actually looking at the emotional components of marriage... it is a contract (a patriarchal contract) in which both parties use each other for various reasons.  It was set up originally to be about exchanging and securing property... and to produce male heirs for the patriarchal line.

So, there's a way in which Alma and Lureen certainly used Ennis and Jack (and vice versa) based on the conventional expectations that surround marriage.  Alma expected Ennis to provide money for her and the children (there's nothing natural about that assumption... it's a conventionally based assumption about what a husband "should" do within the contract of a conventional marriage).

Yes, Jack did make a choice to marry Lureen... but it seems to be more about resignation than enthusiasm on his part.  And, in a cynical way, it also seems to be about his interest in financial security via the Newsomes.

yes that is a cynical view.

and in view of that why would it NOT be natural for Alma to expect Ennis to provide his part of the 'contract'?? She pumped out the kids, he was supposed to provide. This is the 1960s not yesterday.

Because we like Ennis and are sympathetic to his plight does not make him a saint or his actions less wrong.

and you point out quite well that Jack was a gold digger.

those women very much got screwed....