Author Topic: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.  (Read 21677 times)

Offline forsythia12

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2008, 02:08:14 pm »
Getting back on topic...

I always thought it interesting that Jack and Ennis can easily talk about women:  in fact, it's Jack who starts it when he says "all this time you ain't found no one else to marry"--->Ennis mentions Cassie --->Jack lies about the ranch foreman's wife. There's no obvious jealousy at all. 

To me, that's their "pact":  "We ain't queer." 

When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable to Ennis.  Ennis sort of cowers in response. 

I always wondered if Ennis felt too threatened by this, and "made up" the story about August. 

Jack certainly looked dejected that next morning.  Is he expecting yet another rejection from Ennis? 

Then, the whole Mexico thing, confirming Jack is queer.  Which means Ennis is queer.  Their pact is broken.  I think it's less out of jealousy or cheating, but about Ennis being confronted with who he really is.  Ennis makes his threat, then the pathetic "it's cuz of you I'm like this". 

Ending with the "can't stand this anymore, Jack".  Coming from the man who originally said "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it".

Can't fix it.  Can't stand it.

thank you. 
in fact, thanks to all of you for your responses.  i never looked at it like this.  the fact that they had women as their cover because they were in denial about being gay......or at least jack was for a long time. and i never thought about their 'one shot deal' pact they had.  very good responses.

when jack said "all this time and you still haven't found someone to marry" ( close enough)...do you think there was more to this question?  maybe he wanted to bring up how lonely it was only having someone around a couple times a year.  could he have been setting up a confession about mexico?  or any other man?  i can't really see him doing this, but i always wondered about how jack went from a conversation about marrying another person, screwing a foreman's wife, and then to how much he missed ennis.
jack made it sound like he totally expected ennnis to get married, but would he have been  upset if ennis did have a fiance?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2008, 02:17:43 pm »
thank you. 
in fact, thanks to all of you for your responses.  i never looked at it like this.  the fact that they had women as their cover because they were in denial about being gay......or at least jack was for a long time. and i never thought about their 'one shot deal' pact they had.  very good responses.

when jack said "all this time and you still haven't found someone to marry" ( close enough)...do you think there was more to this question?  maybe he wanted to bring up how lonely it was only having someone around a couple times a year.  could he have been setting up a confession about mexico?  or any other man?  i can't really see him doing this, but i always wondered about how jack went from a conversation about marrying another person, screwing a foreman's wife, and then to how much he missed ennis.
jack made it sound like he totally expected ennnis to get married, but would he have been  upset if ennis did have a fiance?

I think Jack is able to talk about Ennis getting married, the "foreman's wife" and then how much he misses Ennis... because any talk about women is, as was said by southendmd, all about their pact.  They're even posturing about their masculinity with each other.  It's a total act, and by this time I think they're almost consciously aware that it's an act.  Neither of them got married out of love and Ennis dating Cassie continues to be about his image.  I think there's a tacit understanding between Ennis and Jack that their relationship is the real one and the meaningful one for the two of them.

I don't think Jack had any intention initially of telling about Mexico.  Ennis figured it out, and then Jack didn't back down.  I think once Ennis figures out the Mexico secret... Jack, in anger, uses this in a new way to demonstrate to Ennis how miserable he's been.  With the explosive argument by the lake, all sorts of topics are finally revealed that had always been kept below the surface before.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline forsythia12

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 02:20:23 pm »
I think Jack is able to talk about Ennis getting married, the "foreman's wife" and then how much he misses Ennis... because any talk about women is, as was said by southendmd, all about their pact.  They're even posturing about their masculinity with each other.  It's a total act, and by this time I think they're almost consciously aware that it's an act.  Neither of them got married out of love and Ennis dating Cassie continues to be about his image.  I think there's a tacit understanding between Ennis and Jack that their relationship is the real one and the meaningful one for the two of them.

I don't think Jack had any intention initially of telling about Mexico.  Ennis figured it out, and then Jack didn't back down.  I think once Ennis figures out the Mexico secret... Jack, in anger, uses this in a new way to demonstrate to Ennis how miserable he's been.  With the explosive argument by the lake, all sorts of topics are finally revealed that had always been kept below the surface before.



true....
thanks friend

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2008, 02:27:49 pm »
When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable to Ennis.  Ennis sort of cowers in response. 

While I'm not disagreeing here, putting this exchange in the context of Jack's statement being awfully close to saying "I love you" also reminds me of my own conviction of Ennis's shyness. I think he's the kind of person made uncomfortable by any discussion of emotions. Even at the very end of the film, after all he's been through, it's still awfully difficult for him to ask Junior if Kurt loves her. I don't think that's only because he's come to understand how much he lost when Jack died. I think it's also because talking about emotional issues in general makes him uncomfortable.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 02:35:20 pm »
While I'm not disagreeing here, putting this exchange in the context of Jack's statement being awfully close to saying "I love you" also reminds me of my own conviction of Ennis's shyness. I think he's the kind of person made uncomfortable by any discussion of emotions. Even at the very end of the film, after all he's been through, it's still awfully difficult for him to ask Junior if Kurt loves her. I don't think that's only because he's come to understand how much he lost when Jack died. I think it's also because talking about emotional issues in general makes him uncomfortable.

Oh yes, I completely agree with you about this.

And, on the flip side, I think Jack is desperate to have some discussions about emotions (get emotional validation from Ennis in some way).

So frustrating for both of them.  And, I think this "I miss you so much..." moment is such a great illustration of both of their dilemmas here and an impass they have over communication (again, a common theme as their relationship progresses).



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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 02:45:31 pm »
And, on the flip side, I think Jack is desperate to have some discussions about emotions (get emotional validation from Ennis in some way).

Exactly!

Quote
So frustrating for both of them.  And, I think this "I miss you so much..." moment is such a great illustration of both of their dilemmas here and an impass they have over communication (again, a common theme as their relationship progresses).

So sad, isn't it?  :(
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline southendmd

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 02:57:13 pm »
So frustrating for both of them.  And, I think this "I miss you so much..." moment is such a great illustration of both of their dilemmas here and an impass they have over communication (again, a common theme as their relationship progresses).

So sad, isn't it?  :(

It's one of the saddest moment for me.  They're playing their "bravado" thing, bragging about women, turning it into a joke.  Jack states he'll probably get shot by Lureen or "the husband", and Ennis, jokingly but ominously says, "You probably deserve it."

Right then, Jack's mood shifts, he pauses, and starts with "tell you what, (pause), truth is, (pause), sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  And Jack says this with a voice that's softer and higher pitched, almost like the younger Jack.  I just love his delivery of that line.

It's the most direct either of them is to the other with how they feel.  The closest Ennis comes is "Jack, I swear".

injest

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2008, 02:57:42 pm »
Well, me, I was one. I lived in rural Kansas at the time and started taking birth control pills in 1970. No, you did not have to go to a doctor. You could go to a clinic or Planned Parenthood. Yes, they had that then.

But, this is all beside the issue. I'm glad Alma found a way to call a halt to the whole charade, because if she would have had to bear child after unwanted child just so Ennis could prove his masculinity, well that is a GDBOAUS for all concerned.


how great for you! I, being raised in the 'hellfire and brimstone' crowd did not have access to these free clinics NOR Planned Parenthood. I am glad they were available for some people and as time went by they spread throughout the country but there isn't one here in our lil hamlet to this day. I am sure if you have the resources and access to a car you could drive to a larger city to obtain these services...unfortunately (as much as we like to pretend otherwise) there are people in this country that still do not have access to basic health care.

Just because some people have options does not mean everyone does. You have YOUR experiences  I grew up on food stamps and government cheese.  I think I know a little about the options available to women locked in rural poverty...

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2008, 03:13:32 pm »
Whew, this is a complex one. Lets see if I can get my mind around it.

When they first met Ennis was engaged, so their FNIT would in my mind be cheating on Ennis's part if you look at it strictly as a "sex is sex" viewpoint. The nature of their relationship, undefined as it was the first summer, put it in a category of something on the down low ("Nobody's business but ours.") and they seem to have looked at it that way. It was a private matter between the two of them, Ennis counting on that to keep it that way. It was another whole game the two of them played outside of their marriage commitments. They were bound to each other by this too.

Now enter Randall.

Ennis had asked Jack in the short story in 1967 did he ever do it with other guys. Jack after a moment of hesitation said no, and Proulx makes one of her obscure references to indicate he is lying ("had been riding more than just the bulls, not rolling his own.") Ennis states that he has never thought about doing it with another guy. Certainly there is a double standard in place. Ennis expects fidelity from Jack, while not being faithful to Alma. Jack on the other hand wants a commitment from Ennis that he is not prepared to give, so perhaps Jack feels he can seek out solice other places because he cannot make it on  a couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year.

So in the story I think that it is a part of their not having an instruction manual, not knowing what to do and the major misunderstanding of their relationship. Ennis, who lived a solitary life and had only his daughters and Jack as bright points in his life. Suddenly one third of that happiness lets him know: Your not the only one.

In real life I see a lot of gay relationships face the same obstacles. In cases of people coming out of the closet an involvement with another person of the same sex often is part of the mix.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

injest

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Re: sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2008, 03:18:57 pm »
Well, me, I was one. I lived in rural Kansas at the time and started taking birth control pills in 1970. No, you did not have to go to a doctor. You could go to a clinic or Planned Parenthood. Yes, they had that then.

But, this is all beside the issue. I'm glad Alma found a way to call a halt to the whole charade, because if she would have had to bear child after unwanted child just so Ennis could prove his masculinity, well that is a GDBOAUS for all concerned.


today in 2008 there is exactly ONE Planned Parenthood in the entire state of Wyoming, eight public health clinics listed.

In Texas today there are 4 Planned Parenthood centers.