sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.

[Brown Eyes]

also, i don't have the quote, or remember who said it in this thread, but someone mentioned the sex with jack in ts1 being ennis's first time.  i never thought about that.  do you think it's true?  i guess him and alma would've waited until marriage, being religious, or maybe because of the times....i dont' know.  weren't the 60's a promiscuous time?  sorry if these questions have obvious answers, but i don't know too much about that era.

Heya,

I think the conversation where Ennis is talking about Jack being a "sinner" whereas he himself hadn't had the "opportunity" yet is up for interpretation. 

But, from my perspective/ point of view, I think Ennis is trying really hard, in his shy way, to tell Jack that he's engaged to Alma but that they haven't had sex yet.  As Jeff and others have mentioned, Ennis is just so shy and especially uncomfortable talking about emotional/personal/vulnerable topics... I think this is a huge moment for Ennis.  Demonstrating that he trusts Jack so much that he'll even tell him this.  I think maybe a lot of 19 year old guys wouldn't want to admit to being virgins.  To me, this is what this scene implies or lets the audience know about Ennis.  We know he's never had sex with a man before in Proulx's story because she mentions it pretty explicitly in describing the first sexual encounter between Jack and Ennis.  The question about whether or not Jack was a virgin with Ennis, is of course, a big question and is debated a lot.  And the "opportunity" conversation doesn't really give us much info about Jack in that regard.  Because it's Ennis who says "you may be a sinner..." (with the conditional "may" in that statement)... and Jack doesn't really reply to this.

And, LOL, yes, I think the late '60s were a much different time in terms of sexual freedom/experimentation, etc.  But, in 1963 in Wyoming I bet things were pretty conservative relatively speaking.  I mean, the Beatles and Stones hadn't even come to America yet.   By the time of the reunion in '67 the more "free wheeling" '60s were coming about, but still it's hard to know how the '60s counterculture would effect Riverton, WY and Childress, TX.

[BlissC]

the real crossing the line, is giving of your heart.I am sure many peple have extra marital flings, and all returns to normal,if the transgression is not discovered,sometimes even if it is.
However when you give your heart to someone other than your partner,the relationship can never be the same,even if undiscovered.A part of you is forever else where.Your partner no longer has the total you.

That is why I feel that neither Jack or Ennis are jealous of the women.They know none of them have their lovers hearts.Ennis only becomes truly jealous over Mexico,I think that is because he realises,there is a risk,that he may lose Jack to another man,as in totally lose him.The women pose no threat to either.It is sex and not love,and latterly it is not even sex.

I think you might be spot on there Optom. I can't remember where I read it (nothing to do with BBM), but a quote I remember from somewhere is that fear is 50% anger and 50% helplessness (damn! I wish I could remember where I read that and in what context!). Ennis's furious reaction is combination of fear and helplessness.

But, from my perspective/ point of view, I think Ennis is trying really hard, in his shy way, to tell Jack that he's engaged to Alma but that they haven't had sex yet.  As Jeff and others have mentioned, Ennis is just so shy and especially uncomfortable talking about emotional/personal/vulnerable topics... I think this is a huge moment for Ennis.  Demonstrating that he trusts Jack so much that he'll even tell him this. 

Yep, I can see how that would be a huge thing for Ennis, and that would show a huge amount of trust in Jack. One thing I always did wonder though, although IIRC this is before FNIT so maybe I'm way off the mark here, is that there's already a clear attraction between them, and maybe they're talking about their relationship, or rather relationships with men, but there's something about how Jack says "I guess it means the world ends and guys like you and me march off to hell" when Ennis asks him what the Pentecost is that always made me wonder about that conversation.

[forsythia12]

Yep, I can see how that would be a huge thing for Ennis, and that would show a huge amount of trust in Jack. One thing I always did wonder though, although IIRC this is before FNIT so maybe I'm way off the mark here, is that there's already a clear attraction between them, and maybe they're talking about their relationship, or rather relationships with men, but there's something about how Jack says "I guess it means the world ends and guys like you and me march off to hell" when Ennis asks him what the Pentecost is that always made me wonder about that conversation.

yeah, that conversation is interesting, and i never paid much attention to that line.  maybe that's a whole new topic for another thread.  'did jack make an inference about both of them being gay when he said that'??

[Brown Eyes]

Yep, I can see how that would be a huge thing for Ennis, and that would show a huge amount of trust in Jack. One thing I always did wonder though, although IIRC this is before FNIT so maybe I'm way off the mark here, is that there's already a clear attraction between them, and maybe they're talking about their relationship, or rather relationships with men, but there's something about how Jack says "I guess it means the world ends and guys like you and me march off to hell" when Ennis asks him what the Pentecost is that always made me wonder about that conversation.

I think this is a really good question... about what Jack was implying with the statement, "guys like you and me".  What exactly was Jack seeing in Ennis that he already understood to be in common with himself?  I don't recall this particular statement being discussed much in depth before... so this could be a really interesting point of discussion.

Maybe this is a little moment of revelation (to the audience) about Jack's level of "gaydar" when it comes to his understanding of Ennis.  But, a first-time viewer wouldn't know yet about the sexual relationship that develops between Jack and Ennis.  So, an analysis of his statement in that regard has to happen a bit in retrospect.

It seems significant to me that this conversation happens between Jack and Ennis seemingly the afternoon leading up to TS1.

When exactly the attraction between Jack and Ennis becomes apparent to many/most viewers is a really important question.  Would a lot of viewers sense the attraction during the "opportunity" discussion?  Or are most totally shocked by the occurance of TS1?  My hunch is that most are meant to be shocked by TS1.

It's hard to try to see these scenes from the perspective of a first-time viewer (now that we've all seen the film many multiple times).

[BlissC]

When exactly the attraction between Jack and Ennis becomes apparent to many/most viewers is a really important question.  Would a lot of viewers sense the attraction during the "opportunity" discussion?  Or are most totally shocked by the occurance of TS1?  My hunch is that most are meant to be shocked by TS1.

It's hard to try to see these scenes from the perspective of a first-time viewer (now that we've all seen the film many multiple times).

That'd be my hunch too. From talking to friends who only saw the film once, and particularly the ones who didn't really know what it was about (i.e. they'd somehow missed all the hype about the "gay cowboy film"), the reaction tended to be "Whoa! What happened there?!" A lot of it was so subtle it would be easy to miss if you weren't watching carefully. Definitely an interesting topic for debate though.

[myprivatejack]

As I'm a newcomer I don't know if someone has spoken about this before-if so,excuse me...-; do you think that Jack was more faithless than Ennis for the only question of having been with other men?.Or do you believe that his infidelity was a mere sexual relief? Not so important as the fidelity he kept all his life to his inner way of being,his inner feelings to ONLY ONE person?.Or perhaps his fidelity was greater because he became faithful to HIMSELF in an emotional sense,not in sexual?.Opinions,please...

[Front-Ranger]

As I'm a newcomer I don't know if someone has spoken about this before-if so,excuse me...-; do you think that Jack was more faithless than Ennis for the only question of having been with other men?.Or do you believe that his infidelity was a mere sexual relief? Not so important as the fidelity he kept all his life to his inner way of being,his inner feelings to ONLY ONE person?.Or perhaps his fidelity was greater because he became faithful to HIMSELF in an emotional sense,not in sexual?.Opinions,please...

I guess I don't really believe in the concept of "faithfulness" per se. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with being faithful. What I believe in is the idea of loving others without regard for what they will give you in return. Easy to say, hard to do, I know. But it's something to shoot for. Unconditional love, I call it. And Jack was definitely a master of that. However, we know that he had relations with other men for the purpose of sexual relief, after all he said "I can't get by on a couple of HAFs a year."

Yes, he was more true to himself than Ennis, but remember, Ennis had been through a traumatic experience as a child and had reacted by shutting himself off from his feelings. Jack had been through one as well with his dad but Jack's way of reacting was to go his own way.

[optom3]

yeah, that conversation is interesting, and i never paid much attention to that line.  maybe that's a whole new topic for another thread.  'did jack make an inference about both of them being gay when he said that'??

I always thought the use of the word sinners  and hell was a reference to them both being gay.I know it was a different era,but even then surely sinner and hell would have been  harsh words to use for heterosexual sex.
But I bet in rural states, gay sex would be very strongly associated with sin and the fires of hell etc. Probably still is by the most judgemental.

[Front-Ranger]

I always thought the use of the word sinners  and hell was a reference to them both being gay.I know it was a different era,but even then surely sinner and hell would have been  harsh words to use for heterosexual sex.
But I bet in rural states, gay sex would be very strongly associated with sin and the fires of hell etc. Probably still is by the most judgemental.

I'm sorry optom, I have to disagree with you. By "sinner" I believe Ennis was referring to people who, uh, fornicate. I don't think the idea of gayness had quite entered his consciousness at that point, altho it was undoubtedly lurking below. Yes, sinner was and is a harsh word but he may have been using it a bit tongue in cheek, as his following words "I ain't yet had the opportunity" make clear. BBM is a story of contrasts, that's for sure!!

[Brown Eyes]

I'm sorry optom, I have to disagree with you. By "sinner" I believe Ennis was referring to people who, uh, fornicate. I don't think the idea of gayness had quite entered his consciousness at that point, altho it was undoubtedly lurking below. Yes, sinner was and is a harsh word but he may have been using it a bit tongue in cheek, as his following words "I ain't yet had the opportunity" make clear. BBM is a story of contrasts, that's for sure!!

Hi Lee,
I agree here.  While Jack may be ready to understand a budding connection between himself and Ennis in terms of mutual attraction and latent sexual orientation, I don't think Ennis is there yet.

I do think that when Ennis uses the word "sinner" he's referring to sex in general (and probably at this point... heterosexual sex on a conscious level.  His body language and eye-contact with Jack imply that he really is probably already attracted to Jack, but I don't think he's really aware of this at a conscious level yet).


So, when I've said before that this could be a moment of flirting... I think Ennis is almost (possibly) flirting despite himself.  Or, he's sort of stumbling along and not entirely aware of himself or what's really going on yet.

Complex indeed.



I would guess too, that there were and probably still are plenty of fire-and-brimstone types who would easily refer to heterosexual sex outside of marriage with terms like "sin" and "hell."